Beauty Summer Reading STEM nav_sap_plcc_ascpsc All-New Fire 7, starting at $49.99 Starting at $39.99 Wickedly Prime Handmade Wedding Rustic Decor Book House Cleaning TheTick TheTick TheTick  Introducing Echo Show All-New Fire HD 8 Kids Edition, starting at $129.99 Kindle Oasis GNO Water Sports STEMClubToys17_gno
Customer Discussions > Christianity forum

A Heavenly Banner: The Constitution of the United States of America


Sort: Oldest first | Newest first
Showing 451-475 of 533 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 9:58:06 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
What are these quotes supposed to prove or support? I don't think they support what you think they do. While some of the quotes you offer are in context and legitimate, some are not. Furthermore, there are plenty of quotes which, when read in relation to the quotes you offer, refute the argument you have made elsewhere on this thread and other threads.

-----------------

We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to The Ten Commandments of God." -James Madison

K: Bogus quote. No evidence whatsoever that Madison ever said anything of the kind. There is ample evidence that Madison would reject such a statement. This quote, which was propagated by David Barton, is one of the reasons I warned you about Barton in the past.

----------------------------------
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." -John Quincy Adams,

K: Another bogus quote. The words attributed to John Quincy Adams by Thornton in this book appear on page XXIX. None of these words are placed in quotation marks. Rather, the sentence reads as if Thornton is making his own conclusion about what John Quincy Adams believed. No footnote for these words is given. Nor are the words attached to a date. If these words are a quotation from Adams, it is impossible to trace them back from Thornton's book to an original source.
-----------------------------------

How about some alternate quotes by these founders, offering a different perspective?
---------------------------------

I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation from the political concerns of the General Government.
-- Andrew Jackson, 1832, statement refusing to proclaim a national day of fasting and prayer, Correspondence 4:447

-------------------------

My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvation and the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.
-- Abraham Lincoln, to Judge J S Wakefield,

"In religion, Mr. Lincoln was about of the same opinion as Bob Ingersoll, and there is no account of his ever having changed. He went to church a few times with his family while he was President, but so far as I have been able to find out, he remained an unbeliever. Mr. Lincoln in his younger days wrote a book, in which he endeavored to prove the fallacy of the plan of salvation and the divinity of Christ."
-- Judge James M Nelson, who had an intimate acquaintance with Lincoln in Washington, in the Louisville Times, in 1887

What is to be, will be, and no prayers of ours can arrest the decree.
-- Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Mary Todd Lincoln

-------------------------------
His object (Jesus') was the reformation of some articles in the religion of the Jews, as taught by Moses. That sect had presented for the object of their worship, a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust. Jesus, taking for his type the best qualities of the human head and heart, wisdom, justice, goodness, and adding to them power, ascribed all of these, but in infinite perfection, to the Supreme Being, and formed him really worthy of their adoration. Moses had either not believed in a future state of existence, or had not thought it essential to be explicitly taught to his people. Jesus inculcated that doctrine with emphasis and precision. Moses had bound the Jews to many idle ceremonies, mummeries and observances, of no effect towards producing the social utilities which constitute the essence of virtue; Jesus exposed their futility and insignificance. The one instilled into his people the most anti-social spirit towards other nations; the other preached philanthropy and universal charity and benevolence. The office of reformer of the superstitions of a nation, is ever dangerous. Jesus had to walk on the perilous confines of reason and religion: and a step to right or left might place him within the gripe of the priests of the superstition, a blood thirsty race, as cruel and remorseless as the being whom they represented as the family God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob, and the local God of Israel. They were constantly laying snares, too, to entangle him in the web of the law. He was justifiable, therefore, in avoiding these by evasions, by sophisms, by misconstructions and misapplications of scraps of the prophets, and in defending himself with these their own weapons, as sufficient, ad homines, at least. That Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God, physically speaking, I have been convinced by the writings of men more learned than myself in that lore. But that he might conscientiously believe himself inspired from above, is very possible. The whole religion of the Jews, inculcated on him from his infancy, was founded in the belief of divine inspiration. The fumes of the most disordered imaginations were recorded in their religious code, as special communications of the Deity; and as it could not but happen that, in the course of ages, events would now and then turn up to which some of these vague rhapsodies might be accommodated by the aid of allegories, figures, types, and other tricks upon words, they have not only preserved their credit with the Jews of all subsequent times, but are the foundation of much of the religions of those who have schismatised from them.
Jefferson's letter to William Short, from Monticello August 4, 1820.

We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select even from the very words of Jesus, paring off the amphiboligisms into which they have been led by forgetting often or not understanding what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, October 13, 1813, clarifying his desire to strip away the myth introduced by the Gospel writers, as his motivation for constructing his Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus

---------------------------

He [the Rev Mr. Whitefield] used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.
-- Benjamin Franklin, from Franklin's Autobiography

----------------------------

If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish Church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here and in New England.
-- Benjamin Franklin, An Essay on Toleration
-----------------------------------

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."

[Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728]
---------------------------

"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan]way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. [Robert Boyle (1627-1691) was a British physicist who endowed the Boyle Lectures for defense of Christianity.]It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist"

Benjamin Franklin, "Autobiography,"
-----------------------

Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we can render to him, is doing Good to his other Children.... I think the System of Morals [devised by Jesus] and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity.

Letter from Benjamin Franklin to Ezra Stiles
Benjamin Franklin
March 9, 1790
--------------------------

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 10:04:02 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Andre: Thomas Jefferson; I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.

K: While it is true that Jefferson was critical of Christian clergy and rejected core tenets of Christianity such as the divinity of Jesus, divine revelation, and miracles, this quote is bogus. Jefferson recorded in his own writings what he obviously thought were redeeming features of Christian thought, calling Jesus' moral philosophy the best available.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 10:07:25 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Birutegal says:
Krinkle,
As my previous posts pointed out, Jefferson had missionaries sent out to the Indians. Perhaps not with Bibles available to everyone of them, but I assume a number of Bibles through the missionaries.

K: There is so much in your previous post that is incorrect, I don't know where to begin, so let's begin with this. Please provide evidence of the above assertion.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 10:08:19 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
MK:'calling Jesus' moral philosophy the best available.'

Yet, he had no doubt that this jeezus guy wasn't the son of any deity:

-And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.-

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 10:10:10 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Birutegal: Now go read my previous post on Hammurabi's laws. No further discussion is possible on this unless you do so, as your remarks show that you have no idea how vastly different Hammurabi's laws and punishments are to those of the Mosaic law.

K: This is pointless. You make incorrect and assuming inferences from my posts.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 10:14:51 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Birutegal says:
I handled that last paragraph of yours, Andre, in a previous post to Krinkle.

It is completely taken out of context.

K: No, you did not. I never posted any of what Andre posted. And my post was not taken out of context. I explained why, and you ignored it. You need to read the entire letter my quote was taken from and get back to me on that.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/jefferson_jesus.html

Jefferson explicitly criticizes the Old Testament God and rejects much of what the Gospels claim about Jesus, explicitly his divinity and divine revelation.

That is what I posted, not what Andre posted.

Perhaps you need to slow down and really read what I am posting if you are going to bother responding to it.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 10:17:35 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Andre Lieven says:
MK:'calling Jesus' moral philosophy the best available.'

Yet, he had no doubt that this jeezus guy wasn't the son of any deity:

K: True.

And this quote you offer is correct.

Jefferson believed the Bible to be a corrupted version of Jesus' teachings. While he credited Jesus with developing a sublime moral philosophy, he accused the Gospel writers of inventing myths about Jesus that Jesus never claimed for himself.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 10:35:59 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
MK:'Jefferson believed the Bible to be a corrupted version of Jesus' teachings. While he credited Jesus with developing a sublime moral philosophy, he accused the Gospel writers of inventing myths about Jesus that Jesus never claimed for himself.'

Well, he was half right. The morals of this jeezus chap were, at best, mediocre. Given that he approved of keeping slaves (Ephesians 6:5, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Luke 12:47-48 NLT), it is no wonder that slave-keeper Thomas felt comfortable with those teachings.

Today, and for quite some time, we've known that BOTH of them were absolutely wrong. So, ol' Tom's view fails on that ground.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 10:52:04 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Andre: Well, he was half right. The morals of this jeezus chap were, at best, mediocre. Given that he approved of keeping slaves (Ephesians 6:5, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Luke 12:47-48 NLT), it is no wonder that slave-keeper Thomas felt comfortable with those teachings.

K: Actually, Jefferson did not approve of keeping slaves. It is a hypocritical point he acknowledged, and struggled over, but he was against slavery even though he kept slaves and freed very few of his own. His original draft of the Declaration of Independence actually indicted the King for propagating the institution in the Colonies. In Jefferson's view, after slavery was institutionalized, correcting it and freeing the slaves was a conundrum he likened to having a wolf by the ears. He did not see a way out. He did not believe that white men would live well with freed blacks due to their racism, and he did not believe that freed slaves would live well with their former oppressors. However, he insisted that all men of all races were equally endowed with freedom and that slavery was immoral and wrong. He himself was racist, believing that blacks were inferior to whites, but he believed that regardless of the nature of race, all people were rightfully free.

Andre: Today, and for quite some time, we've known that BOTH of them were absolutely wrong. So, ol' Tom's view fails on that ground.

K: "ol' Tom" was brilliant, but human, and for all his insight and progressiveness was still a man of his times and culture. Many of "ol Tom's" views failed. He was brilliant, but not perfect.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 11:03:46 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
MK:'but he was against slavery even though he kept slaves and freed very few of his own.'

-People live their values.- He kept slaves, thus he approved of it. Had he disapproved of it, he would not have kept them. QED.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 11:07:03 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Andre Lieven says:
MK:'but he was against slavery even though he kept slaves and freed very few of his own.'

-People live their values.- He kept slaves, thus he approved of it. Had he disapproved of it, he would not have kept them. QED.

K: That is a rather simple view of a complex issue which disregards serious considerations which may have prevented Jefferson from acting on his values. QED indeed.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 11:17:19 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
MK:'which may have prevented Jefferson'

-may- being the word that really means -I have no actual clue, so I'll just BS my way past the point.-

No. People DO live their values. If you wish to claim otherwise, that IS an affirmative claim, for which YOU bear The Burden Of Proof for.

None offered ? No credibility thus comes to your assertion.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 11:29:43 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Andre Lieven says:
MK:'which may have prevented Jefferson'

-may- being the word that really means -I have no actual clue, so I'll just BS my way past the point.-

K: Jefferson wrote about the complex issues he perceived in this case, and discussed the difficulties he saw with freeing slaves even though he believed slavery was immoral.

I said "may" because there such issues which "may" have prevented Jefferson from living his values. He claimed there were, and he claimed they did.

Andre: No. People DO live their values. If you wish to claim otherwise, that IS an affirmative claim, for which YOU bear The Burden Of Proof for.

K: "People DO live their values" is an affirmative claim, for which YOU bear The Burden Of Proof. (love the repeated caps.)

I simply don't accept your affirmative claim as presented. Perhaps you would like to offer some evidence for it?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 11:35:16 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
MK: Really ? I have to prove that people who don't murder have a value system where murder is Bad ?

You can go back to your topsy turvy world now. Because you're, well, barking mad.

Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the Trinity, and he said so:
Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, and he said so:
Jefferson was called an ATHEIST by Christian ministers of his day, who tried to block his presidency! How can Christians claim him now as one of them, now that he's dead?!
http://www.newwest.net/city/article/thomas_jefferson_atheist_and_leveler_from_virginia/C108/L108/
Thomas Jefferson did not believe that Jesus was God, and he said so:
To claim that Jefferson was a Christian is outright dishonest. He was a MATERIALIST, and he said so:

http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html

Sod off.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 11:40:59 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Andre Lieven says:
MK: Really ? I have to prove that people who don't murder have a value system where murder is Bad ?

K: Well, that which is asserted....right? Besides, it is conceivable that some people who don't murder refrain from murder for reasons other than viewing it as morally wrong. More than conceivable in fact.

Andre: Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the Trinity, and he said so:
Thomas Jefferson did not believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, and he said so:
Jefferson was called an ATHEIST by Christian ministers of his day, who tried to block his presidency! How can Christians claim him now as one of them, now that he's dead?!
http://www.newwest.net/city/article/thomas_jefferson_atheist_and_leveler_from_virginia/C108/L108/
Thomas Jefferson did not believe that Jesus was God, and he said so:
To claim that Jefferson was a Christian is outright dishonest. He was a MATERIALIST, and he said so:

K: Why are you posting this to me? I am not Christian, I don't claim him as one of my own, and I don't claim he was a Christian. What you have posted above is what I have posted here myself.

Andre: Sod off.

K: Classy. :)

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 11:44:55 PM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
MK:'Well, that which is asserted....right?'

If you want to take it to that level, PROVE to me that you AREN'T a 16 year old pedophile. <foot tapping>

Tom kept slaves. People who do a thing don't tend to view it as being Bad. If you really need this basic human fact to be proven, well then, I will take it as a given that you ARE a 16 year old pedo. If you can BS, then that leaves it available for my equal use, too.

Blunt doesn't preclude class. Deal with it.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 11:50:37 PM PDT
Cal Engime says:
Plenty of people do things that they feel guilty about.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 26, 2012, 11:58:04 PM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Oh, you win.

Good night.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 27, 2012, 5:51:39 AM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
CE:'Plenty of people do things that they feel guilty about.'

One must be clear about the meanings of words. Yes, people do many things for which, AFTER they have done them, and the act is OVER, they feel guilt. But, when a person CONTINUES a behavior, for years and years, it is not reasonable to conclude that said person's actual values differ from their chosen long term behavior. People do live their real values, and when the words and actions show differing values, the actions are what speaks to the true values held by the person.

People who in the past kept slaves for years and decades are not credibly claimed as being anti slavery; The proof of their being anti slavery would be to not keep slaves anymore. This is like saying that a person who routinely beats their wife is a tireless crusader against violence against women.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 27, 2012, 6:35:26 AM PDT
Well, reading Drift: The Unmooring of American Military Power strongly suggests that it is the US that is the monarchy these days, and an unrestricted one, at that. At least Her Majesty QE2 isn't running around invading various nations...

PJA True.....good observation... But if you do become a commonwealth citizen, you will now have to start spelling color like colour and flavor like flavour... lol ...

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 27, 2012, 7:23:10 AM PDT
Andre Lieven says:
PJA:'True.....good observation...'

'But if you do become a commonwealth citizen, you will now have to start spelling color like colour and flavor like flavour... lol ...'

Why not, that's the correct way to spell those words. And, the last letter of the alphabet is pronounced Zed.

A statement on this from 2000: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 27, 2012, 7:32:58 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Andre, for the most part I agree with this. Actions, behavior, are stronger indicators than words of actual beliefs and values. And when one's actions and behavior differ from the claims one makes regarding their values and beliefs then we are reasonable to question what they say and look to their actions and behaviors as stronger indicators of what their actual values and beliefs are.

However, there are reasonable exceptions. Granted, we must make our own conclusions with limited options to discern if one who makes claim to specific beliefs and values actually holds them when their behavior and actions indicate differently. But, when reasonable argument and apparently sincere reasons are given for holding specific values and beliefs but failing to act on them we can consider the reasons, consider the sincerity, and consider the validity of the arguments presented. Perhaps we find the arguments wanting, but can still conclude that the arguments are presented in earnest.

Of course, one is free to reject the reasons given for not living the values they profess to hold and instead point to their long term behavior as the best indicator for their values.

For me, in this case, I believe that Jefferson was sincere though wrong. I am not certain he was sincere, but there are a number of reasons I find his failure to free slaves and support abolition to be compatible with his proclaimed belief that slavery was wrong.

He struggled with the issue, expressed dismay at his own hypocrisy regarding the issue, and explained reasons that though I disagree with them, understand how he could reasonably believe them, for seeing abolition a complex problem for which he did not see a solution.

Jefferson proclaimed to believe that slavery was inherently immoral. However, he also believed that the institutionalization of slavery created problems which made abolition difficult and he saw no acceptable reasonable method of abolition. In other words, he lamented that slavery was ever began, stated that all men of all races hold the right to freedom, but saw abolition creating serious problems which he did not know how to solve. He also openly admitted that he believed slave owners and supporters of slavery would pay a price to God for their failures, including himself.

Rather than comparing his dilemma to a wife beater who crusades against violence against women, I would compare it to a believer in Global Warming who rejects offered solutions based on sincerely held opinions that proposed policies are ineffective and problem causing. The person can be both sincere that they believe Global warming to be a serious issue, and sincere (even if wrong) that the proposed policy solutions are objectionable.

Someone who professes to be an environmentalist but who routinely supports companies with bad environmental records, fails to recycle, and does nothing to lessen their impact on the environment and or to influence others to do the same can be said to be paying lip service to the idea of environmentalism.

However, someone who professes an ideology yet rejects solutions for ameliorating the issue based on what he sees as reasonable objections does not necessarily fit the criteria for judging them on their behavior over their spoken claims. Rather, such cases should be taken individually and their objections considered and their motivations weighed. Certainly one may do this with Jefferson (to a degree) and still conclude that he simply paid lip service to the belief that slavery was immoral. And even though, as I agreed at the beginning, behavior and actions are indeed the strongest indicator of values and beliefs, I think it can be complex and I don't think it is always as simple as you state.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 27, 2012, 7:40:29 AM PDT
Brian Curtis says:
"And wheter you prefer to make the false claim that he was a Christian, well, you'd have to prove it by his actions, wouldn't you. Everything he did was in abject disobedience to the teachings of Jesus and the apostle-prophet-historians who were inspired of God to write the New Covenant."

No True Scotsman fallacy, once again. "Christians have never been guilty of mass murder, because anyone who commits mass murder isn't a Christian!" Poof--suddenly the Crusades, the Inquisition, witch-burnings, etc., all vanish from history.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 27, 2012, 10:57:57 AM PDT
Cal Engime says:
The analogy fails, because spousal abuse is not something I can see one being driven to by circumstances. Jefferson was in no position, financially, to free his slaves. He inherited a massive debt burden from his father-in-law when he got married, and his habit of setting a fine table for his many guests didn't help matters; it was only his reputation that kept his creditors at bay. A strict moralist would say it's better to go bankrupt than to continue as a slaveholder, but I don't see how you can claim Jefferson didn't make that choice because he didn't think slavery was wrong; it's like arguing, to pick a classic example, that someone who routinely lies to the Gestapo about whether they have Jews hiding in their house can only do so because they don't think lying is wrong. It may have been a principle Jefferson was willing to compromise for social and financial reasons, but he clearly objected to slavery.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 27, 2012, 11:03:00 AM PDT
mrs exp says:
Cal Engime,
It seems that he only disapproved of slavery except when you are in debt and need slaves to continue in your luxurious life style.

That's like me saying I pay my debts except when I want the money for something for "me."

I think that called being a hypocrite.
exp
[Add comment]
Add your own message to the discussion
To insert a product link use the format: [[ASIN:ASIN product-title]] (What's this?)
Prompts for sign-in
 


Recent discussions in the Christianity forum

  Discussion Replies Latest Post
Announcement
Amazon Discussions Feedback Forum
1266 1 day ago
Jesus' true Church today would have CURRENT REVELATION FROM GOD! 9738 1 hour ago
The Missing Links 69 2 hours ago
Jesus said... "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father but by Me." John 14:6 Part Three 4666 4 hours ago
elementary school teacher in Oklahoma has to panhandle for classroom supplies. 23 5 hours ago
Facts about the Bible and Christianity 2418 5 hours ago
Part 3- the somewhat newer thread 2235 6 hours ago
Catholic-Protestant Discussion XXXVII 9999 6 hours ago
My Mob Pub and Coffee Shop, Parth the Thirteenth 204 8 hours ago
Last Day Biblical Prophecy is in the process of being fulfilled, the stage is being set, are you ready? Part Three 4352 11 hours ago
Japanese First Lady avoided Trump by not speaking English 8 16 hours ago
Agnosticism is fake religion 610 20 hours ago
 

This discussion

Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  33
Total posts:  533
Initial post:  Apr 16, 2012
Latest post:  Apr 30, 2012

New! Receive e-mail when new posts are made.
Tracked by 1 customer