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The effects of secular educational institutions


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Showing 76-100 of 209 posts in this discussion
Posted on Feb 29, 2012 10:37:48 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 29, 2012 11:18:40 AM PST
A customer says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 10:39:08 AM PST
S. Kessler says:
Except it is a fact.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 10:42:20 AM PST
mrs exp says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 10:43:49 AM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 10:44:45 AM PST
mrs exp says:
S Kessler,
So you say.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 10:45:44 AM PST
mrs exp says:
S Kessler,
I'm not insane even though I'm sure their are some on these forums who think I am.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 12:45:44 PM PST
Joe Anthony says:
@ "Scientific Mind"

You said: "Everything I wrote is true and is not some fantastic unsubstantiated extraordinary claim. That is in the realm of the believer."

I say: OK, lets take something that you said from the post to which we are discussing:

"Church and Religion: Brainwashing. Yes. It lasts for years and 99.9% of the preachers stick only to the bible and do not offer alternative ideas. Anyway, even if there is no alternative ideas offered and it is only bible study, you are a child. You can't take it or leave it. It might be over with in a dozen or more years."

Now, how do you get "brainwashing" from the process of children growing up with a religious life (particularly Christian) childhood? You indicate that 99.9 of all preachers "brainwashing" children with only the Bible and that no other ideas are allowed to seep through. However, that has got to be untrue because if the children really were brainwashed then by geometric progression the whole world would be made of 99.9% Christians. Due to geometric progression, every child who was reaered in a Christian home would be brainwashed into raising his or her child as a Christian and so on and so forth. The OPPOSITE has happened in Europe. Where Europe was once the cepicenter of the Christian faith, it has moved to the USA and the Third World; while Europe ha sbecome more or less secular. Even Pope Benedict XVI has conceded that fact.

So how did all the of devout or "brainwashed" European Christians go wrong? Why weren't they successful in "brainwashing" their children? "Brainwashed" implies no mind of your own, that you must do as you are told. So what happened in Europe?

I'd also like to know what you mean by "brainwashing". When I was a little boy I lived with a grandfather who used to watch the Three Stooges and John Wayne movies constantly on TV, and I was made to watch those old movies throughout my childhood. Now, many years later, I'm still watching the Three Stooges and John Wayne. Did my grandfather "brainwash" me into liking the Three Stooges and John Wayne?

While that may not quite be the same thing as growing up with religion, what I think is apparent is that parents must raise children with some sense of absolutes; that there are certain values which are RIGHt and there are no "alternate ideas".

If a Christian parent teaches a child that a as a Christian one is supposed to "love thy neighbor", "turn the other cheek", "forgive thy enemies' and so forth, I don't se eit as "brainwashing" as much as I see it as raising the child with values. Teaching a child love for God and love for country isn't "brainwashing"; it's just good parenting.

I think that one of the problems in todays society is that we're NOT raising children to have a love of God; that is a "spiritual life", and we're NOT teaching children love of country.

That doesn't mean that the kid has to be raised a Christian. Indeed, I think that Jews, Moslems, Buddhist and other parents can also provide their children with a solid spiritual foundation, as well as, a sense of pride and patriotism for their country. I think that it makes one a better person to feel a sense of responsibility for one's God and one's country; that there IS something GREATER than oneself with which one should humble himself or herself.

When I go out and see how people throw their trash on the street, I say top myself; what a bunch of filthy slobs who have no respect for God or country.

I don't think that children need to grow up to become carbon copy robots of the parents and psychology tells us that they quite naturally enter into a phase of emacipation where they want and need to be their own person; despite your claims of "brainwashing". Indeed, children should grow up to form their own values and they be able to ask their own questions; but I don't see anything wrong with parents providing them with a spiritual, moral and patriotic foundation.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 2:19:56 PM PST
Irish Lace says:
"6. College does expand your intellect. It exposes you to new ideas, cultures and methods of thinking. "

And THAT, my dear SM, is the problem. They will be having none of THAT subversive nonsense!

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 2:23:22 PM PST
Irish Lace says:
"When the people I know speak of the United States being a Christian nation we are referring to a nation inhabited by those who profess to be Christians, who vote according to the dictates of their consciences as informed by Scripture. "

And what, pray tell, of the rest of us?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 2:26:34 PM PST
Irish Lace says:
"What I prefer is that people not be flooded with evolution as a fact when it is anything but a fact."

You are simply wrong. I realize that there is no level of information that could be offered that would penetrate your wall of fear and ignorance, so there is no point in offering it. But you really are wrong.

Why Evolution Is True
Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters
The Greatest Show on Earth: The Evidence for Evolution

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 2:36:28 PM PST
mrs exp says:
Irish Lace,
So just because you and majority of the science community say it's true, I should accept that when I don't think you have a shred of evidence that shouldn't be interpreted another way. And there qualified scientists that agree with me.

Your saying it, no matter often, or how loud doesn't make it so.
exp

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 3:46:57 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 3:47:03 PM PST
Brian Curtis says:
"And there are qualified scientists that agree with me."

Your saying that, no matter how often or how loud, doesn't make it true, Mrs. Exp.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 3:47:57 PM PST
Brian Curtis says:
"What I prefer is that people not be flooded with evolution as a fact when it is anything but a fact."

But you've already admitted that you're not qualified to know what is and is not a fact, because you reject science. So why should anyone listen to your preferences?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 3:48:50 PM PST
mrs exp says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 3:51:04 PM PST
mrs exp says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 29, 2012 11:57:23 PM PST
AxeGrrl says:
mrs exp wrote: "I do wish I could defend creation as well as you do."
~~~~

'As well as' Jeremy Crockett?

you _already do_ mrs exp, you already do :)

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 1, 2012 12:04:40 AM PST
AxeGrrl says:
are you a technical writer seraphimblade? if not, i'd say you could have a nice career there, because you have a great ability to express things very clearly and to zero in on the _essential_ points......and this post of yours is a great example :)

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 1, 2012 2:49:53 AM PST
mrs. exp said:

"Your saying it, no matter often, or how loud doesn't make it so."

And the same goes for you. You can choose to say the earth is flat, or gravity isn't real, or evolution doesn't happen. (All of those statements are on the same footing, by the way, and ignore the same amount of evidence, research, and observation.) But the world will remain round, gravity will continue to keep us in orbit around the sun, and life forms will continue to evolve via natural selection.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 1, 2012 3:32:25 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 1, 2012 5:28:32 AM PST
Joe Anthony says:
Mrs. Experienced said:

"It doesn't say that worshipers cannot have opinions and speak them loud and clear as any other person or group."

seraphimblade replied:

"In fact, given the guarantees to freedom of speech and religion, it explicitly guarantees that they may do so. That's no problem. The problem is when they try to -legislate- their beliefs, not when they express them."

I say:

All legislation is based upon a belief that there are some things which we as partof a civiliation can do; and other things which we cannot do. The US Constitution doesn't say anything about BELIEFS. It says that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of RELIGION , or prohibiting the free excercise thereof..."

In this regard why should you deny "worshippers" thier "beliefs" as it pertains to legislation, when non-worshippers also have "beliefs" which they also use as a moral foundation when they excercise their civic involvement? In a way; what your saying is that non-worshippers have a right to democracy and religious people don't.

There could be a situation where you and I both vote for a law that places a fine upon littering. Maybe you voted for it because you "believe" that trash on the sidewalk is disgusting and unsightly. Maybe I voted for the law because I, as a "worshipper" or a as a Christian "believe" that Jesus probably wouldn't have liked people throwing their trash in the street either. In this case, why should it matter how wo sepreate belief systems "belief systems" melded to create a single law that we both agree upon.

What the constitution says is that laws cannot be made that ESTABLISH RELIGION. It doesn't talk about beliefs. When it comes to abortion, the death penalty, same-sex marriage, war, poverty, and so forth; I and every other religious person has the right to vote our conscious and even rely upon our religion as a moral foundation.

What we as religious people can't do is make a law that establishes a religion.

In that regard, we can't legislate that all Americans must read the Bible daily or that all Americans must abide by the Pope's positions on birth control and so forth; because those laws would be unconstitutional.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 1, 2012 3:41:57 AM PST
AxeGrrl: Thanks! :) I generally do the documentation for my development group, but it's not my primary job-that is, of course, the development itself.

I've always seen you to write quite clearly as well, and generally make very good points. Maybe you can do our documentation (I hate doing it?) :)

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 1, 2012 4:12:55 AM PST
Irish Lace says:
"So just because you and majority of the science community say it's true, I should accept that when I don't think you have a shred of evidence that shouldn't be interpreted another way."

I rest my case.

Posted on Mar 1, 2012 6:23:41 AM PST
Here's my hypothesis:

Definitions:
1) xor - the exclusive or function. This is the way the word "or" is used in everyday speech. "You can have cake or ice cream." "Can I have both?" "No. Xor. Only one or the other.
2) Old Earth - the universe is about 13 billion years old. The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old.
3) Young Earth - the world and the universe is 6,000 or 10,000 or 13,000 years old or whatever.
Naturally, Old Earth xor Young Earth is a given.
4) Rigid Christian - believes the following: God xor Old Earth. God is true. Therefore Old Earth is not true. Therefore Young Earth is true.
5) Flexible Christian - believes God and Old Earth.

My own bias/belief is that Old Earth is true, real, reality.

So, Rigid Christian parents send Rigid Christian child off to a secular college. Secular college says "Old Earth is true." Rigid Christian student can stubbornly reject this and graduate, stubbornly reject this and drop out, or accept "Old Earth is true." He may convert to the "God and Old Earth" position, or he may instead believe "God xor Old Earth. Old Earth is true, therefoe God is not true."

Flexible Christian, on the other hand, goes off to college, enters college thinking "God and Old Earth" and leaves college thinking "God and Old Earth."

So, for Christianity to survive, it has to accept reality, join the 19th century, and realize the Earth is 4.5 billion years old.

The Rigid Christian "solution" is to homeschool their kids through high school, send their kids to a Christian college, and restrict their TV viewing, to isolate them from reality.

Posted on Mar 1, 2012 6:26:17 AM PST
Disclaimer: I am not a Christian myself, and I acknowledge that "Christianity and Old Earth" has problems, but I have to eat breakfast, take a shower, and go to work.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 1, 2012 6:35:21 AM PST
Bubba says:
If "The Genesis Flood" is found in the science section of the library, it was mis-cataloged or mis-shelved by the library. The publisher assigned it a Dewey Decimal number starting with 222, which is in the Religion section. 222 is Religion : Bible : Historical Books
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Discussion in:  Christianity forum
Participants:  33
Total posts:  209
Initial post:  Feb 28, 2012
Latest post:  Mar 6, 2012

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