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Customer Discussions > Christianity forum

The evils of Christian faith


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In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 12:53:24 AM PDT
B. Josephson says:
Where?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 1:10:16 AM PDT
M. Gaudet says:
In the Old testament i don't have a bible on hand.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 2:22:05 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 28, 2010, 2:44:56 AM PDT
Joe Anthony says:
S. Hendrix says:

Here is a NY Times article:

"About 300 children have died in the United States in the last 25 years after medical care was withheld on religious grounds, said Rita Swan, executive director of Children's Health Care Is a Legal Duty, a group based in Iowa that advocates punishment for parents who do not seek medical help when their children need it."

I say:

OK, let's play in YOUR ballpark: 300 divided by 25 equals 12 children per year. Out of those 12 per year, how many are evangelicals and fundamentalists?

...and how many evangelicals and fundamentalists are there in the USA..over a MILLION maybe?

Your other other statistic from Rita Swan and the Methodist Hospital ius even less convincing. Between 1975 and 1995 indicates a 20 year period. You say that 172 children died during that time. that adds up to less than 8 children per year, and the statistic is 15 years obselete. You mentioned Christian Scientist, Faith Tabernacle, and Faith Assembly as groups which were repsonsible for this kind of practice.

Again, WHERE are we talking about the vast majority of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists?

I've been around a lot of Pentacostals; they do believe in faith healing; they do lay hands upon people who are sick; they do pray for people who are sick; but where is your information that Pentacostals, and other Evangelicals are allowing children to die in LARGE NUMBERS for lack of medical treatment. The person you wish to defend said that this sort of thing is "well-known" among Evangelicals and Fundamentalists.

At best, your OWN statistics that you have just provided (and assuming they are correct), point to, maybe TWELVE kids per year out of over a MILLION; and the statistics which you provide have FAILED to identify how many of those children were Christian Scientists, Jehavah's Witnesses and the other fringe groups which have nothing to do with the vast majority of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists.

As I say, I have friends, family and work associates who are pentacostal, evangelical and fundamentalists. Most of the southern wing of my family is fundamentalists; I have an uncle who is a evangelical minister, my grandfather was pentacostal, another uncle is a right-wing fundamentalist...my wife is Latin American and much of her family is also Pentacostal, as that religion is making in-roads in the Hispanic communities...

...but if what you say is true, than how come *I* know of no instances where somebody close to me has allowed a child to die from lack of medical treatment?

I know how much you and Celsus are anxious to discredit Christianity. The two of you have done so often on a variety of other forums. I'm a Christian, and if you want me to take ownership of the Inquisition, the Crusades, Martin Luther's anti-semitism, the conflict in Northern Ireland, scandals in the Catholic church, and so forth; than so be it...

...but what you shouldn't do is go around making up stories.

Why don't you go back, and find out about the 8-12 kids that YOUR statistics indicate die every year from lack of medical treatment. See if you can find out how many were Christian Scientists and other groups that cannot fairly be classicfied as belonging to the major organizations of evangelical or fundamentalists Christians; if you can't do so, than your statistics are, at best, inconclusive.

Furthermore, how does the data correlate? If we assume that as much as HALF of your 8-12 children are dying because of Evangelical or Fundamentalist views on medicine (and even THAT is giving you a generous benefit of the doubt), that amounts to 4-6 deaths per year. If we were to correlate that date with the millions of people who identify as Evangelical and Fundamentalist, would we then see a strong or a weak correlation?

Indeed, I don't have a computer in my head, but what I know from my college statistics is that four to six of about a million amounts to an NO correlation. In fact, it actually proves that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are doing the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you say.

I know how desperate you and Celsus are to prove that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are child-killers. Making up lies to demean religious groups that people don't like has always been common.

The most vile among Christians who were prejudiced against Jews, used to spread awful lies to malign the Jewish culture and the Jewish religion. Protestants did the same to Catholics and Catholics did so, in kind, to Protestants.

As "Sonny and Cher" used to say, "The Beat Goes On...and the Beat Goes On."

When Celsus decided to make public an implication that Christians are "evil" and that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are child-killers; than those accusations should be supported than a LOT more than you or Celsus have provided.

Don't you agree?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 2:52:26 AM PDT
Joe Anthony says:
Celsus says:

"Martin Luther said: "What harm would it do if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church...a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them""

I say:

It looks to me as if you've taken some of Luther's ideas to heart, in terms of maligning Evangelicals and Fundamentalists as child-killers.

Your lies have certainly done you some good in your efforts to malign and demean evangelicals and fundamentalist.

The only problem with telling lies, is that sooner or later, the lie begins to unravel, and than you either have to admit to the lie and tell the truth; or make up more lies to cover the initial lie.

I advise you to come clean and admit that your statement about Evangelicals and Fundamentalist being "well-known" for allowing children to die from lack of medical treatment was essentially bogus.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 5:02:49 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 28, 2010, 10:34:24 AM PDT
Celsus says:
Joe

>>I advise you to come clean and admit that your statement about Evangelicals and Fundamentalist being "well-known" for allowing children to die from lack of medical treatment was essentially bogus.<<

What is "well known" is that only fundamentalist/ evangelical Christians tend to do this. I do not know any cases of Muslims, or Hindus or Buddhists or Bahai or Shinto or Taoists allowing their children to die as a result of their faith in God. Only Christians tend to do this. Of course, if you can offer some examples involving other faiths, I would like to see them.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 6:55:02 AM PDT
Indian children are abandoned every day. Mother Theresa used to find them by the roads. And children starve to death while breakfast, lunch,and dinner goes mooing by and people bow.

You are a complete idiot.

If hundreds of millions of Christians would never deny medical treatment to their children why does your evil idiot self think that the few, the very few, proves what the many, the very many don't prove.

You disgusting jerk.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 7:51:45 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
I do not understand what you are saying Raison.

Others have said the same? Said what?

Overwhelming millions of Christians would not do what? Withhold medical treatment? Of course I know this and agree. Of course it "counts" counts with me. I have not, and no one else has implied any differently.

I think you are missing the point of the entire thread. The point is not that all Christians would act this way, or do act this way, or that even most do or would.

It is an indictment of what faith can do. It is an indictment of what faith and a certain reading of the Bible can and does lead to.

Most Christians find that reading to be entirely disagreeable. In fact, most Christians seem to pick and choose how to interpret the Bible to fit their idea of morality. However, if they truly believed the Bible taught this, and had the faith they profess they would do what the Bible tells them to do and pray rather than get medical treatment.

A Jehovah truly believes the Bible forbids blood transfusions, and so they do not accept them.

Some Christians truly believe that the Bible teaches prayer over modern medicine, and faith leads them to accept this and follow it.

Look at the Amish. If you believed that the Bible ordered the Amish lifestyle, would you live it?

If you believed like the Quakers that the Bible ordered strict pacifism, would you oppose the US military and all war.

The OP is a questioning and criticism of what "faith" has "accomplished" over the years.

If you disagree, would you forgo the security precautions taken before boarding an airliner today?

Overwhelming millions and millions of Muslims would never "do that."

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:10:51 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
M. Gaudet says:
Christan Scientists are not Christians any more than Mormons.

At least historically. I mean no disrespect to their beliefs or faiths.

SH: Oh obviously, no disrespect, they just are not true Christians.

It matters not that the Christian Scientists believe Jesus was divine, born of a virgin and resurrected. They do you know, believe this, which seems to be a fundamental tenet of Christianity.

Sure, it is not orthodox, but it is Christian.

And the Mormons? Just because they believe in one more prophet than you, they are not Christian?

The fact that they believe that Jesus is the Son of God, who was born of a virgin, died and was resurrected and if you accept this sacrifice as an atonement for your sins you can have eternal life in Heaven, and if not, you get to go to the place of eternal torture is so obviously NOT CHRISTIAN.

Obviously, who would say that the Mormons are Christian? That is silly. They are not orthodox, but they are Christian.

And, in case you meant the Jehovah's Witnesses and not the Mormons, well, they too are obviously not Christian.

No, they too do not believe that Christ was divine, sent by God to die in atonement for the sins of man. Oh wait, yes they do.

Are they orthodox? No. Christian? Yes.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:13:42 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Helpful Not Helpful
Galatians 5:21 ESV

Envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

(But no one said that the Bible did not warn against drunkenness. It was only said that the Bible did not require anyone to give up drink. )

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:15:49 AM PDT
Stan says:
SH: If you believed like the Quakers that the Bible ordered strict pacifism, would you oppose the US military and all war.

Stan: The Quakers are personal pacifists, Not corporate. Many have served with distinction, and some have received citations for valor.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:18:19 AM PDT
S. Pool says:
MG,
i have never read that quote so please provide it when you do have your bible at hand.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:27:18 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 28, 2010, 8:33:57 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Joe Anthony; OK, let's play in YOUR ballpark: 300 divided by 25 equals 12 children per year. Out of those 12 per year, how many are evangelicals and fundamentalists?

SH: Wow, rather than admit that you were wrong, you lash out with justifications?

The three hundred are obviously only the ones who are known.

Don't get all huffy with me.

It was you who made the completely bogus claim that Celsus' links could only account for 5 deaths nation wide.

Now it is an average of 12 per year.....and yet you still play incredulous.

Be my guest.

Who said anything about the "vast majority of Evangelicals." You are making things up in order to argue against them.

Celsus said evangelicals of all varieties are known for it. He said nothing about the "vast majority" of them doing it.

Is this intentional distortion, or are you simply so angry that you don't realize you are doing it?

First, only five cases nation wide.

Now, it was supposedly claimed that the vast majority of evangelicals are guilty of this.

Joe: I know how much you and Celsus are anxious to discredit Christianity.

SH: Have we not been through this before Joe? Short term memory? I think so. I am not anxious to discredit Christianity. Your accusation is not fair.

You are attacking me for things I did not say.

I corrected your assertion that Celsus' links only accounted for 5 dead nation wide, which was very wrong.

That is all.

Conversing with you is rather emotional though, as your posts are chock full of emotional rage and blame.

Here is a question for you. No correlation?

How many non religious parents had children die because they withheld medical treatment for prayer?

Correlation indeed.

The correlation is between religious faith and prayer, and the withholding of medical treatment.

Your argument means nothing.

No one ever said that the majority of Christians do this, or the majority of evangelicals do this.

The numbers are clear. 300 over 25 years is not indicting any majority.

That was never the point.

NO ONE SAID IT. NO ONE IMPLIED IT.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:29:42 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Galatians 5:21 ESV

Envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:30:50 AM PDT
S. Pool says:
Celsus,
i already provided you with a good example and you did not even bother to reply to it. How many other countries let die or even kill their newborn female babies because they wanted a boy instead? That was a very common practice in China and in India and still is in practice today in some parts. Is it because of their religion? I do not know if religion plays a part in it or not but it actually makes it worse to know that the reason they did it was in order to have a son instead of a daughter.
In a lot of third world countries female babies are seen as worthless, even more so than an animal. If your concern is for children in general then you should focus on the abuses committed against children all over the world for non religious reasons and not just focus on what religious people do or don't do, especially when your statistics are so low in number compared to other world atrocities committed against children. Seriously how do 8 children a year for the past 25 years dying from some religious fanatic cult's ignorance on medicine and healing compare to hundreds of kids dying EVERY DAY in places like Africa because of genocide, starvation, malnutrition, FGM, etc...?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:32:15 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
S. Pool,

I want to apologize for my earlier posts to you. You are quite possibly correct. I was in a bad mood, and I think I took it out on you when I perceived your post to be in fact arguing for arguments sake and mischaracterizing Celsus' post.

In hindsight, I do understand your position and I believe you were being honest and sincere and "informative."

I apologize for reacting the way I did and making the accusations I made.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:45:54 AM PDT
S. Pool says:
Hendrix,
Apology accepted, and one thing i will clarify about me for future reference is that I do not waste my time arguing with ANYONE. If i do not know enough about something to make a point then i keep my mouth shut. Most of the time when I post i do not post in statistics because I usually only post from personal experience or from personal knowledge. I tend to stay away from Apologetics in general and usually end up in polemics with other Christians because although I would love for everyone to have a relationship with God, I do not make it my place to preach to people or to convert.
If any non believer has an HONEST question and a SINCERE desire to learn about my faith and what I believe then I converse, if i see it is done for the purpose of mockery then I do not waste my time. And I can admit when I am wrong when necessary so i do appreciate your apology it shows character and self reflection.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 8:47:59 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
It does not compare, and no one is making the comparison. It is totally disgusting and unthinkable that this goes on in as it does. No, the Chinese did not do this out of religious beliefs, and I very much doubt that the Indians did it out of religious beliefs either. More, out of economic necessity.

It happens in places of extreme poverty and overpopulation.

There are other reasons for it. Such as this:

In November 2008 it was reported that in Agibu and Amosa villages of Gimi region of Eastern Highlands province of Papua New Guinea where tribal fighting in the region of Gimi has been going on since 1986 (many of the clashes arising over claims of sorcery) women had agreed that if they stopped producing males, allowing only female babies to survive, their tribe's stock of boys would go down and there would be no men in the future to fight. They agreed to have all new-born male babies killed. It is not known how many male babies were killed by being smothered, but it had reportedly happened to all males over a 10 year period and probably was still happening.[80]

In China, it was often blamed on the "one child policy", and males were much more valuable.

The US has a high infanticide rate, considering, as well.

But this is not infanticide. This is not intentional killing of children.

This is the unintentional killing of children due to irrational faith in religion.

As far as the death tolls comparing, it does not, in anyway compare.

I think the reasons are more sad though, because it was so easily preventable and such irrational thought that led to the death.

But, the amount of suffering is not comparable. Genocide, 30,000 children dying of starvation every day, this is not comparable.

But, they are not starving and dying completely unnecessary and preventable deaths due to irrational faith.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 9:02:29 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 28, 2010, 9:02:53 AM PDT
QUESTER says:
Joe Anthony said ...

... and how many evangelicals and fundamentalists are there in the USA ... over a MILLION maybe?
_______________________________________________________

Actually, ... more like 100 million.

In the broadest sense, according to Gallup polls, the number of persons in the United States who described themselves as either Evangelical or Born-Again between 1976 and 2001 fluctuated between 33 percent and 47 percent with a reasonable estimate being 35 percent of the population or just over 102 million people in 2003.
__________________________________________________________

Thought this might help ...

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 9:04:05 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 28, 2010, 9:05:20 AM PDT
S. Pool says:
Hendrix,
i agree there is no need for children to die from such things as irrational faith of any kind, not just Christianity. In ancient times Latin American tribes used to offer up infants as sacrifices to the "gods" and this also happened in Europe, babies were also killed if they were born "weak or sickly" looking because they thought they would grow up to be weak and no good for the tribe. So this kind of stuff has been going on from the beginning of time all over the world by people of many belief systems and most of them were not Christian since Christianity did not even come to exist until after Jesus death.
Of course this does not excuse what happens today to children all over the world and it does not excuse what has happened to children at the hands of ignorant parents. Ignorance kills and destroys in all areas of life and not just religion so it is important to make sure we kill ignorance before it spreads like wildfire, that should be the goal of humanity and in this case the goal of the Christian population who suffers from such erroneous doctrines.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 9:14:44 AM PDT
QUESTER says:
S. Hendrix said ...

Are they orthodox? No. Are they Christian? Yes.
_____________________________________________________

That, obviously, depends on who is doing the reckoning.

Christianity entails variance among its adherents, but there is a core of belief which is universally accepted across all of the major groupings (Catholic, Protestant, and European Orthodox). These beliefs can be found in the very early creeds (Apostles', Nicean, etc.).

In addition to these major groupings which accept all of the major Christian doctrines, ... there are a number of smaller groups which don't accept all of these doctrines.

Christian Science, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses are some of these.

These share elements of belief with the major portion of Christianity, but also include beliefs in their systems which are antithetical to the major Christian doctrines, and so these groups, cannot be reliably be accurately called ... Christian.

Certainly, their belief systems derive, in some way, from Christianity, but they are not fully Christian.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 9:30:16 AM PDT
QUESTER says:
S. Hendrix said ...

How many non religious parents had children die because they withheld medical treatment for prayer?
_____________________________________________________

A more apt question might be ...

How many non religious parents had children die because they withheld medical treatment ?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 9:30:28 AM PDT
QUESTER says:
S. Hendrix said ...

NO ONE SAID IT. NO ONE IMPLIED IT.

Celsus said ...

What inspires Christian parents to withhold medical aid from their children in preference for prayer, thus ensuring their death?
______________________________________________________

This is the implication ...

... and, of course, the title of his thread is ... The evils of Christian faith.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 10:14:54 AM PDT
You misuse orthodox and Christian. Ortho means 'right' as in conforms to what it should be.

Is a voodoo-practicing 'Catholic' in Louisiana Catholic. You say yes. But only because it suits you. I could as well call them an unorthodox voodoo-ist, the Catholic part being the unorthodox part.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 10:27:54 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
I am sorry, but though I am sure some Quakers have served and with distinction and valor, historically Quakerism is against military service and Quakers have refused to participate in war.

Members of the Historic Peace Churches such as Quakers, Mennonites, Amish, and Church of the Brethren object to war from the conviction that Christian life is incompatible with military action.

Individual Quakers have served, and even split from orthodox Quakers over the issue, such as the "Free Quakers", but I historically Quakers have been objectors to war and military service.

I am not denying that many Quakers have actually served.

Regardless, we can fix my question easily.

"SH: If you believed like the Amish, Mennonites, and The Church of the Brethren, that the Bible ordered strict pacifism, would you oppose the US military and all war.

(again, certainly some individuals have served, even many, but that goes against the Churches official stance.)

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 28, 2010, 10:30:09 AM PDT
Mr. Krinkle says:
Agreed S. Pool. 100%.
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Initial post:  Oct 25, 2010
Latest post:  May 14, 2012

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