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Customer Discussions > Cooking forum

Is it me or do few of the cookbook reviewers appear to have actually tried the recipes in the books they review


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Showing 1-25 of 64 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Jan 30, 2012 7:54:24 AM PST
angiedanin says:
I love to read cookbooks. The photographs and chatty intros are important to me but most important is do the recipes really work. Are they tasty? Does the finished product look like the photos? So many reviewers focus on format and give a detailed description of the table of contents but do not appear to actually have made any of the recipes. Some reviewers state they have made a number of the recipes but after a lengthy glowing review of the cookbook devote only one sentence to the actual recipes. Now I myself have any number of cookbooks I have bought only to never try any of the recipes but when I read a review of a cookbook I want to know what recipes the reviewers have actually prepared from the book.
Thanks then to those reviewers who list the recipes they have tried successfully or not (also important to know) and to the rest please include whether you have made any of the recipes or are reviewing the cookbook more as a coffee table book for the pleasure gained from viewing the photographs.

Posted on Jan 30, 2012 9:48:09 AM PST
I buy cookbooks for one primary reason (obsessive/compulsive behavior aside): to find interesting recipes to cook. If a cookbook reviewer has not tried any of the recipes, the review is worthless to me. This goes as well for "celebrity" reviewers as it does for the "average Joe/Josephine" reviewer.
Where the same sort of syndrome reaches its greatest heights is in reviews on web recipe sites. I don't care if you think the recipes look good, or you intend to try them. I only care if you have tried the recipe and what your experience with it was like. (Hint to recipe sites: remove those time-wasting comments.)

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2012 10:48:03 AM PST
"Does the finished product look like the photos?"

this might not be as important - if you only knew what food stylists do to get those yummy photos :O

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2012 11:47:23 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 30, 2012 11:52:46 AM PST
A. Benoit says:
Broussard's Restaurant & Courtyard Cookbook
Hi Angie, Steve and Absolute Zero- I agree with you about all of your comments. My name is Ann Benoit I'm an Amazon author and I earn my living by creating high quality art cookbooks for the commercial food industry. I convert commercial recipes to home versions, test cook, write, research, style and photography the dishes, research and write the restaurant and owner bios, do the architectural and portrait photography, convert the photos to a format ready for print and do all the layouts. Lots to do! My cookbooks have a minimum of two test cooks. First the chef himself cooks it once and must approve the recipe himself as it appears in the text draft. Second, either I or a recipe tester I am working with cooks it at least once, maybe more depending on the degree of difficulty. As far as my most recent cookbook, the Broussard's Restaurant and Courtyard Cookbook, goes I spent 3 weeks to a month checking all the food photos against the recipes looking for ingredients. When I am working with a chef, what sometimes happens is the chef has prepared it so often that the recipe he prepares has morphed from whatever written record the kitchen may have because he prepares it often from memory or taste and not from reading a written version, so if he has a written version [which often they don't] it's probably not right anyway. I know some cookbook writers do not check their photos against their recipes, but I do. Lastly on the styling question, I don't do all that deceptive food styling stuff. I want the food to look like the real food and that can be done well with a little effort. I'm not saying that I don't make mistakes -- of course I do -- we are all human, but being a professional is all about the level of effort put into the details. Keep cookin! Ann

Posted on Jan 30, 2012 2:37:05 PM PST
angiedanin says:
Thanks for your input. I have made many a recipe from a cookbook only to find the result disappointing. I often look first at the epicurious site because most reviewers have made the dish and often make valuable contributions as to how to improve on the recipe. When I buy a cookbook I often turn to the Amazon comments to help me make a informed decision. Hence the wish for more recipe critiques. I agree with you Steven and A Benoit the quality of the recipes should be the most important criteria when choosing a cookbook.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 6, 2012 12:22:45 PM PST
Grandma says:
I collect cookbooks, read every one I can lay hands on and review quite a few of them. If I like a book I will always try a few recipes from the book. If I don't like a book, then I may not. I'm not going to waste ingredients on recipes I know have too much baking powder for example. And if I have to keep putting my reading glasses on to read the ingredient list, then take them off to get the ingredient, you can bet I won't be trying more than one.

Posted on Feb 6, 2012 2:42:44 PM PST
Carlgo says:
The internet ones seem to be the worst. Often clear mistakes, caught by many reviewers, but they do not revisit the recipes to correct them. Their only real interest is promoting the shows and selling stuff.

Posted on Feb 7, 2012 11:19:13 AM PST
Savage Lucy says:
That's why I never trust the rating for a cook book. I always read individual reviews. The people who say "This is so cute! Can't wait to try some of these recipies!" are lame, but there are many who list which recipies they've tried and can attest to how good the dish is and the level of difficulty. I always try to do at least 2 or 3 recipies (if not 5 or 6) before reviewing.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 7, 2012 1:20:42 PM PST
Grandma says:
I think most of the internet-only cookbooks are really nothing more than cut and paste jobs of material lifted from some website, usually in copyright violation.

Unless you are talking about the cookbooks from the various TV chefs . . but that is a different ballgame. How good they are depends on who they are from.

Posted on Feb 7, 2012 4:55:08 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 26, 2012 11:58:27 AM PST
JayDee says:
from a note from "Grandma, who said:
I think most of the internet-only cookbooks are really nothing more than cut and paste jobs of material lifted from some website, usually in copyright violation."
..........
You are so right! I have a really good cookbook that is quite a few years old but is still very popular with people who are familiar with my recipes and my style of cooking. The internet has made a mess of the recipes. People cut and paste, leaving out ingredients and/or part of the instructions. Some even gather many recipes from here and there and create their own cookbook -using some of my recipes, as well as those from others' books. They don't ask us permission nor give us credit- making it seem as though it were their own recipe. Those books are self-published because a publishing company would need proof that the book is copyrighted in that person's name, and I know they could not manage that. Many of those books are free to download to the Kindle, or some may try to sell them for anything from 99 cents up to maybe around 3 or 4 dollars. The real author has no problems knowing which of the recipes were lifted from their own book to help make this 'new' book under another name. It is not worth suing people who use a few of your recipes and claim them as their own, since courts do not take the issue seriously enough, and lawyer fees and court costs are very high.

I do not like my name associated with a recipe that has been so messed up by a person who took it from my book, copied it but not correctly, and did not bother to edit it very well or maybe not at all- and their own editing often left out some important factors such correct ingredients or the amount of an ingredient, or cooking time or temperature. And of course much of the instructions are a thing that is too often left a mess! There is apparently still the myth going around that if you change just a few little things you can then claim the book as your own- or a speech perhaps; anything they didn't write but claim they did - otherwise known as plagiarism. You can't copyright a single recipe (with a few exceptions) but you can copyright a book of recipes or even part of a book if it has anecdotal information, and perhaps pictures or drawings, along with the recipes or whatever the subject of the book.

There is one famous case that was tried in court quite a few years ago, and the well-known person used a recipe but did not give the person who developed it credit for it being their recipe. She was taken to court by the recipe developer. The judge ruled that any profits had to be turned over to the courts and the book had to have the recipe removed from any more printings. That was just a slap on the wrist but it was funny at the same time it was frustrating- because that particular person who was taken to court is well known for having a temper and would not like it at all if someone used any of her ideas but did not give credit for them being hers.

Years ago a person offered the entire contents of one of my books on the internet, to be downloaded in a file. He was not trying to sell the recipes it but just giving all of them away - there were many of them in that book. The incident was more than I could just let slide. That's different from using one or even a few recipes from someone's book. I had my lawyer contact him and asked him to remove all my recipes from his site and he was told not to offer any of them again. In his scanning the recipes, he had made a real mess of the entire thing. I would never want my name associated with such a thing. My recipes were developed over the years, and was something I was very proud of. They were delicious and looked great, and could be served with pride if made the way I wrote them. But making them as they appeared after the terrible job he did in copying them and putting them all into a file made them something no owner would want to claim as their own recipes. Ingredients left out or ingredients in the wrong amounts, or not having the instructions complete - what a mess he made of my creations! Grandma, I am sure that is what you meant by your remark about them seeming to have been from a copy/paste job. And you are right. It is a slam on me and all the hard work I did, and I am sure all other authors feel the same when their work is stolen - whether for profit or just for the ego of the person taking them.

Too many people have found over the years that the internet is the number oneplagiarismr plagerism. People have no qualms about stealing your material. No wonder people often say things like "that is a terrible recipe and I don't see how anyone can think of it as a good one" I don't blame them! Who would want to use a recipe that ends up nothing like it was when the developer of it first had it published? A person wastes their time and ingredients using such recipes.

I never want my name connected with those screwed up recipes that I worked so hard to develop - the recipes which are delicious and something I was proud to serve - when it is prepared just the way I wrote it. But not the way it ends up after being on the internet and the lousy job too many do in copying it correctly. So a word of advice to all of you who have something you have written, and are very proud of having your name on it as the creator of it. Be careful where you post it. Or consider not posting it at all. Just talk about the gist of the contents and discuss that, but do not reveal your entire work. It is a sure bet that it won't be long before it is changed into something that does not resemble your original work, whether it is a speech, an article, a book or even artwork. That's a harsh thing to have to do, but do you really want your material stolen and made to look as though you are a lousy author, if for some reason they do keep your name with it, or someone who reads it remembers seeing it before, when it had your name on it?

Even lyrics to songs are no longer as easy to find as they used to be. You'll find them, but they are seldom listed with permission from the owners of the material. People took them and often made a mess when copying or scanning them and putting them on a website. I have seen some that are atrocious looking and are not complete.

You hear a lot of people complain about 'what is wrong with posting lyrics' - or recipes- or poetry- or whatever. There are legitimate reasons why you might not want your creations to be published on the internet and end up as the messy things they so often are in the end. The internet can make you mistrust people. The internet can be a wonderful tool and it has literally changed the world, but it can do so much harm at the same time, when misused as it too often is.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 7, 2012 5:39:32 PM PST
Grandma says:
It is my understanding that you cannot actually copyright the entire individual recipe - only the directions. And of course any comments, illustrations and the collection as a whole. The list of ingredients, no. And that is a good thing, because I have recipes in my personal collection that I received from my grandmother a half century ago that have since shown up in some cookbook somewhere.

I do know what you mean. I used to have one of the biggest sites on the internet. I can't tell you a pain in the neck keeping people from stealing my graphics was. Some of them would go so far as to steal them so that my server was still serving them up on their website where they were offering them for free as "their graphics." Infuriating! Not only do they steal from me, they steal my bandwidth I have to pay for too!

Still, if nobody every posts anything because they are afraid someone will steal it we might just as well shut down the internet.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 7, 2012 7:29:47 PM PST
Grandma,

I love to read your comments on the different cooking threads. Your posts are captivating as well as informative. Do you still have your blog on the Internet?

Linda

Posted on Feb 7, 2012 8:35:17 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 12, 2012 8:24:05 PM PST
JayDee says:
Grandma

I will respectfully disagree with part of your comments. You can't copyright the directions alone - not without some extras which I will describe. Here is how the court rulings go in most all states. (as with everything, I should add that there are always some exceptions)

What the courts have ruled is that a recipe can be posted or written in this way- below - and it is not illegal to include all three of these factions together: (but none are copyrightable on its own, not even the directions if they are the basic method of preparing that recipe. Adding more to the directions is called the anecdotal part and that has to be included along with the title, ingredients and basic instructions for preparing a recipe in order to be copyrightable.

1. The name of the recipe
2. The list and amount of the ingredients
3. The BASIC instructions for preparing the recipe.

(that 3rd one is the one most people get stuck on and believe it is as you describe- but the courts say no on that- it is just fine to list a recipe just as I did those three factors) So, not one of those three parts is illegal ON IT'S OWN. They all go together. A recipe would be useless without all of the three parts of it being included- well, you could leave off the title but that would cause a lot of confusion when searching for a recipe in any collection or book) :)

What can be copyrighted is the recipe AND all the anecdotal information that someone may include with the recipe, whether it is descriptions, drawings, pictures, or asides about something that happened, which the developer may talk or write about while describing or preparing the recipe. Imagine a person on TV who is making a dish. She talks about some things that involve the recipe- such as it is from her grandmother, or it was developed by accident while trying to make it a certain way that didn't turn out that certain way but ended up being better because of her mistake.

I can picture someone like Rachel Ray who chatters along while she does her preparations of a recipe. So if all she says is written down instead of spoken, that would be the entire recipe- the 3 basics plus her comments make up the recipe. THAT can conceiveably be copyrighted, but it hardly ever is. People just wait and copyright the entire book or magazine article once it is finished. They don't bother with a single recipe. I really doubt if we could find a case of a single recipe that has been copyrighted.

No two judges would rule exactly alike so there are fine points to each case that is brought before a judge - and there have been so few cases that has ever been brought, which involves recipes. One judge ruled this way (and others agreed with his ruling in the very few cases they hear- most judges never hear even one such case involving recipes, or so the state court records show.) He quoted King Solomon who said in part "there is nothing new under the sun". He used that quote to make his point that all recipes derive or arise from a previous recipe to some extent. That nothing new is really done and people just make variations of other recipes. The word "variation' was used several times in the descriptions of the few court cases involving copyright infringement.

That any recipe derives from one that has been made before, with changes here and there not making a recipe "new and unique" - that was the ruling of why a book or collection can be copyrighted but not single recipes. There have been exceptions for a few recipes but that goes state by state and a person would need to see what their own state rules about such things. In my extensive research over the years- and with some help from the newspaper's lawyer, we could not find a single recipe by name that was copyrighted - just the words that "there could be exceptions".

Those are things I found in court cases when researching them for my food column as well as my own books. I used the paper's lawyer for some of the information, but he was not much help bercause he had no personal knowledge of such things since it just had never come up before, so there was no record of any research done by the newspaper on that sort of case he said. Where he was helpful was in obtaining access to old court records- as well as the newer ones- something that most of us aren't allowed to do.

In the end, we won't find many cases that involve recipes because it is not something that draws much attention. It was very difficult for me to find enough information when I wrote my books as well as published a weekly newspaper column. I had to know those things for the sake of not putting myself or the paper in the position of doing something illegal. It seems research for anything involves more of the finer points than the big glaring bits that make the news.

I wonder if our paths have crossed over the years? I too have had my own web sites for many years but gave them up a few years ago to pursue more interesting things. I stiill have one (even though I closed it to anyone now) but when the lease expires soon I won't renew it. It was a lot of work and time I wanted to spend on other things. I know what you mean by having your own creations taken by others. I made so many animated icons and people took them - and gave me no credit of course- and I would see them all over the internet. I am sure I could still see many of them if I dropped in on many forums now, which I don't except for a few on Amazon. But since we don't use smilies here, that is a moot point. Some icons (smilies) are freeware but mine was developed solely by me. However, I never got a copyright on them since I did it for fun and to see how much I could do with them. I have them all now and gave a copy of all of them to a relative to use as she wants to.

About our comments on posting or not posting our own creations. What I meant by my statement in my first note was that people could talk about their books or whatever they are into, without actually posting the entire thing. A discussion about the gist of it is something that interests me and I liked finding a discussion about so many things. I got really tired of the same old things being talked about all the time and tried to find new ideas being discussed. The same old jokes, the same old lists that are supposed to be funny - very boring, but I guess after you've been online for over 20 years, there isn't much you haven't seen or heard. Now I love doing research on many things, as well as reading world news from papers all over the world - and I'm into photography now too, so there is much online that I can learn from. It is truly a small world when you get involved with the internet.

About stealing bandwidth. It is so much better now than in the 'old days' when it didn't take much to shut down the site for the day or longer. But I can empathize with your frustration over the abuse by some members.
Maybe I'll run across some of your notes in cooking forums, since Linda M mentioned that you write on cooking threads. I am not familiar with many of the Amazon forums....

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 8, 2012 5:05:03 AM PST
Grandma says:
Hi Linda M. - the blog is still there, never took it down, but it has been a year or more since I've done anything with it. It has been a distracting year to say the least. I'm in the middle of moving - this cottage is FAR too small and I caught the landlords heating their house part-time from gas I pay for - but perhaps I'll get back to it with a new and revised version once I'm settled in.

Posted on Feb 8, 2012 7:59:39 AM PST
Kay Shepherd says:
On the idea that recipes must be tried before reviewing, I don't view it as necessary. I read reviews on cookbooks all the time here on Amazon and I've come across a lot that I did find not helpful at all - "Looks great! Can't wait to try it out!" and the like. However, people who cook a lot and know what they're looking for and who know how to write can offer VERY helpful reviews even without actually cooking any of the recipes.

And besides, the people who do cook some or a 'few' of the recipes and comment on them may or may not be particularly skilled in the kitchen. I've seen many favorable reviews on a given cookbook and then one person (or a few) will say they tried the fill-in-the-blank recipe and it was awful! - but they don't say why it was bad, or how they proceeded. Could be operator error. I'm glad for constructive criticism of a cookbook, but it needs to be clear and not just, "terrible cookbook -nothing I tried worked!"

Additionally, I've been reading a blog by this very interesting and highly intelligent woman who is cooking her way through The Gourmet Cookbook. She even went through culinary school just for her own benefit (while concurrently pursuing her PhD in Mathematics at MIT). She is almost done with her project and I have read every one of her recipe reviews. Of the almost 1,300 recipes she has tried, 411 were ranked in the A category (she rates on an academic grading scale and usually cooks for several friends who all rate the recipe), 711 were in the B range, and 161 were C's, D's, and even two F's. So if she were to just review only a dozen recipes from any given rating range, you could have a very different picture depending on which recipes she chose, even though the overall rating of the book after about six years of testing proves to be quite favorable, with about 87% of the recipes in the A or B range.

I do like reviews of cookbooks where people say they have had it for years and cooked many, most or all of the recipes - that tells me they really love it. And I do like it when people share their favorites - I write those down on a sticky note and put it on the inside cover as inspiration - especially when several people mention it.

What I really don't like is when people give a one star rating and then only say that the seller shipped it late or something. Those reviews really do need to be removed.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 8, 2012 2:45:14 PM PST
angiedanin says:
Thanks for your detailed post. When I originally asked the question I did wonder whether reviews where the reviewers have not tried the recipes were useful but you are right an experienced cook can many times glance at a recipe and tell if it should work. As another reviewer commented the photos don't necessarily reflect the finished product but the recipe ingredients can give you an idea of the general taste. I am in Costa Rica right now and purchased a local cookbook (some people buy T-shirts I buy cookbooks) and can see some gaps in both technique and spicing. I guess they really think you should season to your taste and know how yuca fritters are made.
I would also be interested in the blogger who is testing recipes of the Gourmet cookbook.
I have a cookbook by an author who has a column in the local paper and the recipes I tried from her columns were delicious while the two I tried from her cookbook had serious flaws. The recipe for chocolate mousse I tried three times because I thought it must be me but everytime it congealed to hard as a rock. I am not sure why the difference but you are right it could be the cook, the recipe or it might just not be a A recipe but a C recipe to begin with. Either way without actually making the recipes in her cookbook and just going on my previous experience with her recipes I would have rated the book highly.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 8, 2012 3:30:43 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 8, 2012 3:38:08 PM PST
Kay Shepherd says:
The blog I to which I was referring is called "The Gourmet Project" by Teena Gerhardt. I think she's a pretty amazing person and she's very nearly done with her project - like only four more recipes. I suspect she has done the cooking already, and just needs to find time to post.

I like your souvenier idea - cookbooks over t-shirts!

And you bring up another point - sometimes a reviewer will mention, as you did, that they tried the same recipe multiple times and still had a failed result. I appreciate that, too, because it shows that the reviewer really gave it 'the old college try'. Maybe that particular recipe is flawed - either in ingredients (something is missing or an amount is wrong), or in instruction. I can imagine that it is very difficult to avoid all possible errors, especially in larger cookbooks. For example, The Joy of Cooking has an errata page online that you can go to and print off a sheet of corrections to a handful of recipes that have been reported as having an error in them - and you can report new errors if you find them! (thejoykitchendotcom) From another cookbook, an amount of an ingredient looked really wrong to me, so I looked the author up online, wrote her, and she wrote me back! She apoligized for the error and gave me the correct amount. The recipe was fine once you knew the correction. I only wish all cookbooks would have that kind of info readily available online. I would not downgrade a rating based on a couple of typos, but some people do.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 12, 2012 4:21:54 PM PST
angiedanin says:
Thanks for the name of the blog. Sorry for the delay in replying but as I said I am on holiday and the past few days our internet has been nonexistent. I will definitely read her findings as the idea of grading is interesting.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 13, 2012 1:41:57 AM PST
"On the idea that recipes must be tried before reviewing, I don't view it as necessary. "

That would depend on the nature of the review. If your review focuses on the layout of the book, the clarity of the text, etc. then indeed actually cooking the recipes is not required.
If your review raves about how good the recipes are, you'd better have tried them.

Posted on Feb 14, 2012 4:44:42 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2012 4:52:16 PM PST
Here is what the U.S. Copyright Office has to say about copyrights for recipes:

http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 14, 2012 5:28:41 PM PST
Grandma says:
David, thank you so much for your kind words! I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed The Deli Maven's Cookbook. it is, BTW, one of the very best put-together ebook cookbooks I've come across. Somewhere along the line I did read about you spending time in Israel cooking for the IDF. That must have been a wonderful experience. Israel is very dear to my heart.

I think some of the best Mexican I've ever had was courtesy of my Burrito Lady who came every morning to one of the hospitals that I worked at, just at coffee break time, with a cooler full of hot burritos - different every day. She made her own flour tortillas bigger than a dinner plate and served every burrito with a raw jalapeño, or sometimes a pepper that looks very similar but is a pale gold color. Such burritos those were! Some rare afternoons another woman would come by with freshly made tamales - to DIE for. I know the theory of making tamales, but you just can't really duplicate them satisfactorily without fresh masa.

Many of the recipes roaming the world today are like your Cherry Claflouti recipe. One that I treasure greatly is the 1234 Cake I learned to bake when I was just two, sitting on the counter "helping" Auntie Beulah. That was long before James Beard published the recipe in James Beard's American Cookery and of course it is in dozens of other sources both before and since.

As far as a website goes, I do have a blog somewhere roaming around but I haven't gone near it in a year with this and that. I do have a small cooking/recipe swap group of international friends on Facebook (more are always welcome), but I thought much the easiest thing to do was to visit your blog and leave a comment so that you would have my email address. I would love to read more of your work and look forward to swapping ideas with you!

Posted on Feb 24, 2012 1:57:51 PM PST
Sara Powell says:
I HATE it when people review cookbooks by saying they have nice pictures and then listing the contents. I actually want to use my cookbooks, so saying they have pretty pictures doesn't help me. There's one individual in particular who claims to be a "professional" cookbook reviewer who does exactly this. He has tons of reviews, none of them helpful.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 24, 2012 2:15:23 PM PST
Grandma says:
Maybe what he means by "professional reviewer" is that he gets paid by the inch :) It actually is illegal to take any compensation other than a free item for writing a review without revealing that you did so, BTW. And grounds for banishment from Ammy

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 25, 2012 6:49:20 PM PST
Re: Is it me or . . .

I've even heard of cookbook "authors" who do not even cook their entries. Martha Stewart had one on one of her shows once. This (very famous) one had someone else do his cooking, but he pimped it as "his" cookbook. Shocked the H--- out of Martha when he responded to her question about something saying, "Oh, I don't cook." She looked about to faint. However, there are cooks out there who publish cookbooks with recipes they have never test-cooked. I guess it becomes apparent when the recipes keep failing.
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