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Film About High Stress In Schools


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Showing 1-25 of 26 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Feb 28, 2011, 6:04:13 AM PST
The U.S. education business is now controlled by pseudo-educators and by the operators of assorted testing rackets.
=====================

http://courant.com/news/education/hc-race-to-nowhere-0227-20110226,0,2261460.story

Parents Flock To State Screenings Of Film About High Stress In Schools
'Race To Nowhere' Portrays A Test-Oriented Culture That Leaves Students Unprepared For College
By GRACE E. MERRITT, gmerritt@courant.com

The Hartford Courant February 26, 2011

AVON -- A grass-roots film about the high pressure to perform in American schools and the toll it takes on students is quietly making the rounds in Connecticut, and parents are flocking to the showings.

The documentary, "Race to Nowhere," shows the pressure of being saddled with hours of homework and high expectations to perform well on tests, in sports, and in other extracurricular activities to build college resumes.

The film depicts an epidemic of stressed-out or disengaged kids, a culture of cheating, frustrated teachers and a test-oriented culture that leaves students unprepared for college.

The film, being released through private screenings, has been shown at dozens of schools and universities in Connecticut in recent weeks, with showings coming up next week in West Hartford, Simsbury and Danbury.

A recent screening at Avon High School sold out, and about 500 parents, principals and teachers stuck around afterward for a lively discussion. Parents complained about the hours of homework their children face each night and the expectation to enroll in Advanced Placement classes. They talked about the difficulty of trying to keep life simple for their kids while at the same time helping them compete for college.

Teachers talked about the pressure they feel from administrators and school boards who think they are doing what parents want. Former students talked about classmates who took more AP classes then necessary to get into college and were so stressed they couldn't eat or sleep.

"We need to accept our children for who they are," said Gretchen Huber, a West Hartford mother and teacher at Thompson Brook School in Avon. "We're all under a tremendous amount of pressure."

The film depicts students suffering from stress-induced stomachaches, insomnia, anorexia and cutting. A 13-year-old girl driven to commit suicide. Students cheating or taking the stimulant Adderall just to keep up.

In the film, a student says: "Everybody expects us to be doing more. Sometimes parents need to step back and say, 'You know what? You've done a really good job.' "

The film's director, Vicki Abeles, takes aim at Advanced Placement classes, which she says are designed to cover huge volumes of material to prepare for multiple-choice tests. Students often don't retain the material or learn to think critically or work collaboratively, skills needed to prepare them for college and the workplace, she said.

During the Avon meeting, Lori Leopold, a mother of six, suggested that the Avon school district do away with Advanced Placement courses to reduce the pressure on students. Other communities, including Scarsdale, N.Y., and Hanover, N.H., have taken that step.

"At college information sessions, they are saying we want to see that students have taken the most difficult classes they have at their school. If we eliminate [AP], then they won't have the option to take them," Leopold said.

After the movie, organizers took a survey and found that Avon parents worry that the quality of education is being diminished.

"The big concern seems to be that the depth of learning that our children get is compromised because of the mandates: the testing and the resume-building in high school, which really requires multiple AP [classes] and multiple exams," said Susan Rietano Davey, a PTO member who helped bring the movie to Avon.

Abeles said the film has struck a nerve.

"I think the reason there are so many reports from everywhere that the film is resonating is that a lot of people have been feeling like this for a while and felt alone," Abeles, 49, said in a phone interview from her home in Lafayette, Calif. "Everybody sees themselves in this film."

Abeles, a corporate lawyer and mother of three, said some school districts have already responded to the film's call to action. Some have eliminated AP courses to free teachers to go deeper into certain subjects. Others have changed homework policies to reflect research on the effectiveness of homework or opted not to "teach to the test," she said.

"We've also seen some start to change the students' schedule. They have gone to a block schedule or scheduling students to take only three or four academic classes at a time so they actually have time to dig deeper and have fewer classes to prepare for in the evening," Abeles said. "Some have gone to a later start time for high school students, who go to bed later and sleep later."

For information on Connecticut screenings and tickets, see http://www.RaceToNowhere.com,

Courant senior information specialist Tina Bachetti contributed to this report.

Posted on Feb 28, 2011, 5:50:50 PM PST
J. LeBrecht says:
This film really does a wonderful job of asking very good questions about what school aged children are being put through. The sold out screenings and lively discussions have been consistent since this film was released.

Posted on Mar 1, 2011, 2:20:08 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 1, 2011, 2:27:04 PM PST
DRM says:
Does the film discuss how average students who don't want to take physics, chemistry, and Algebra II are still being pushed into and required to take these classes? Even students who have not shown an inclination toward going into the math or science careeers?

I think it's actually the schools pushing the youth to do this. Looks good for the school and their image to have all of these youth in high level math and science classes?

Like all of those magnet schools and charter schools that say they are specializing in Aerospace, Science, Pre-Med, and where you can earn college credits at these high schools. Looks like they are overselling themselves and not caring if the youth are in over their heads. If youth can read, write, reason, speak well, understand complex issues, and learn how to learn, that is teaching them alot by the time they turn 17 years old.

Let's have high schools that are only three years rather than four years. Let's prepare students for careers in whatever field they want, starting in the tenth grade and going through the eleventh/final year of high school. If it is pre-college, then great. If it is in automobile mechanics, great. (Plenty of computer work these days in auto mechanics.) If it in health care but not to be a doctor, nurse, or physician's assistant, great, there is plenty to be done in health care beyond these roles. Middle school students have got to start learning who they are, what they like, and then firm up their decision in the ninth grade. If they don't know by age 15 what their interests and skills are, we have failed them as teachers and parents. If there must be a grade 12, it could be for continued pre-college courses for those headed and ready for college. For others, it could be an internship in a particular field. Put them to work and out there in the real world! They'll soon know if they like what they have chosen or rather they want to re-commit to their studies in another area via junior college for a year or two shoring up their academics until they are ready to go to a full fledged university or college. (Although I still think a youth could learn on-line all that they need to know from age 18 to age 24 to prepare them for anything they might want to do in life, as long as they can pass an entrance/skills/knowledge exam to allow them full entry into their chosen career.

Oh, but the high school athletic boosters and athletes will not be happy if you shorten the amount of years youth attend high school. Oh well, communities can start their own community leagues for teens who want to play sports.

Say hello to the future and online learning. Say goodbye to the Alma-Mater and those old high school days. While you're at it, say goodbye to the Alma-Mater and those old college campus/dorm days.

Online is where most learning will take place in the future. As well as via hands-on internships and apprenticeships.

Sorry, teacher unions and tenured professors! Even the steamboat operators had to learn a new trade.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 2, 2011, 11:25:24 AM PST
ChickPea says:
@DRM: While I think that everyone should have a base knowledge of mathematics, the science disciplines, literature, and writing (really, high school level courses are all "base knowledge"), I fully agree with your proposition of the "three-year high school." I did not solidify my decision of what I wanted to major in until freshmen year of college! My husband, on the other hand, knew by the time he went into middle school what he wanted to do (which, in his case, turned out to be physics). I completely agree that students need some direction as to where they are "headed" in life by ninth grade. Too many young students today are too concerned with the next big social outing, the newest episode of JERSEY SHORE, and who signed their wall on Facebook. I ask my brother-in-law (who is 15) every time I see him what he wants to do in life. All he can tell me is that he would like to play basketball for "superawesomcollege" that's hecka-hard to get into. He has no idea where he's headed and his grades are evidence of that. Reality hit me hard in the few days after graduation: I moved out, set up in a tiny little apartment 2 hours away from home, started college, and got a job. I realized that in 2 to 4 years I would be living LIFE; all of life--bills, job, money, grocery shopping, COMPLETELY independent. I got married, settled on a major, kept my job, and know exactly what I want to do and where I want to be (my husband, naturally, has had his plans in order since he was 10). I don't think "young people" (as some are so fond of saying) realize that LIFE begins in just a few short years when they enter high school. And the fact that living with your parents until your 30 is so readily accepted is evidence of what this kind of pattern leads to. I know a girl who still (married and 25 years old) has not decided what she's going to do with her life. She has spent the last 7 years bouncing from college to college (wasting Mommy and Daddy's money) for, as it seems, the fun of it! This kind of behavior is not okay! However, I am not asserting that everyone has to stick with the same career for life. I know plenty of women who were nurses, then housewives, then went back to college to be teachers. That's fine! But they had it in the back of their minds when they were much younger.

Of course, I'm an advocate for homeschooling so it will be no issue as to whether my children take "base knowledge" classes and/or want to do an internship. Let's just say if I could have interned my 11th or 12th grade year the way I am now (in college), I would have figured out what I wanted to be "when I grew up" a LOT sooner.

Thanks for your post!

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 2, 2011, 1:14:35 PM PST
DRM wrote: "Online is where most learning will take place in the future. As well as via hands-on internships and apprenticeships."

My feeling is that most online education is pseudo-education. I agree with you about "hands-on internships and apprenticeships." The 14 May 1993 London Times Educational Supplement had an article about the apprenticeship programs that are operated in Germany ("Rooted in the past but fit for the future," Page 18). According to the article: "Some 700,000 16 to 20-year-olds sign up each year for the vocational training programme. It's known as the dual system because it combines on-the-job training with classroom theory." Most students enroll in these three-year programs after completing tenth-grade.

I am sure that many American students would benefit from such programs. Unfortunately we do not have the political-economic-educational infrastructure to create them.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 2, 2011, 1:57:17 PM PST
Dagny Tag says:
"I am sure that many American students would benefit from such programs. Unfortunately we do not have the political-economic-educational infrastructure to create them. "
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It is called industry, the one's who benefit from job training. The public taxpayer should not have to pay for private industrial training. Education is about questioning the merits of things like jobs. Perhaps if we had educated our children we would have many more private businesses with people enjoying their intelligent purpose.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 9, 2011, 9:07:40 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Mar 9, 2011, 11:20:26 PM PST
I always felt an internship senior year would work for those not wanting to go to college. Or even for those who wanted an internship as they were taking classes in college. My senior year was sort of a waste, I only had three real classes, the others being a teacher's aide class, a study hall and a free period. I had finished all the classes required for me in the prior years. If there would have been a chance for an internship, I would have taken it. Through that, I might have gotten a better part time job while starting college. Or else, I could have been taking three classes for college credit my senior year.

The problem with education in American is not enough quality. It isn't quantity. I know people who graduated high school and don't know much of anything. I think that links up to the retaining remark the original post had. It is like they only have an eighth grade education because these people didn't retain any of what they learned in high school. Of course, all the enrichment classes like the arts, music and other subjects that make people more well rounded (like history and psychology) tend to be weeded out for more science and math. Not everyone is good at science and math. I took three years of both and ended up not doing that great at it at a certain point, like Trig, for example.

Internships should be held in mechanics, nursing/health, service industries of all types, creative fields (like writing and graphic design) and probably a whole bunch of areas I haven't listed. Kids could get an idea what the job is and get experience in work that would help them earn money for college (if it is a paid internship) or network in their field. Or if they don't want to go to school, help them achieve a certificate for doing a job, like nursing aide or something like that, like a AA learned on the job.

Sports people could scout kids in high school still. I think they do that now. Or else those kids can play on college teams.

I am not sure about the online stuff. I mean, a lot of kids would take it as an option, since college is probably three times as much as I paid to go and it wasn't that long ago! I think college does help kids act for themselves, I learned a lot from interaction with our students and teachers...something the internet alone can't provide. It's a hard call.

As far as the movie goes, I have heard of it but haven't seen it. It reminds me a lot of the "Tiger Mom" thing, not at all related to Tiger Blood, of course. Moms who force their kids to be so perfect and excel to the point they rebel or stress out, giving them no positive feedback, only getting mad or even calling them names when they didn't perform.

I don't have kids, but if I did, I would give them as much time to play as work. But play to me is also reading and being able to use their imagination. I feel so much of our world is basic in only logical pursuits, without any creative pursuits to round it out, so our kids become zombies who seem not able to have hobbies along with their study fields. I enjoy writing in my field, but I also enjoy reading, painting, jewelry making, perfume making, a lot of things outside of this. I feel kids miss out on being well rounded because of all the stress on math and science right now. It is like the world is so vast and public education cuts such a small pie piece in which to teach our youth, no wonder they are freaking out.

@Chickpea...Yeah, I know a lot of those kids who lived off their parents until their late 20's/early 30s and then went to college. A couple of them I know are successful, though it seemed for years in their 20s they were heading for jail or worse. :) It makes me sort of jealous, since from the age of 17, I lost a parent, the other loss their job...so I had to pay for my own schooling and got kicked into life rather young...I envy those who had an extra 10-15 years to enter and drop out of 2-3 colleges since their parents had a meaty college fund set up for them and they didn't have the stress I had. They had a decade to figure themselves out while their supportive parents stood by them and helped them out. I feel, personally, that I wish I had had a few extra years, since I was barely 17 when I started college (I was moved up a grade and was a year younger when I started grade school). With my parent's death and everything else going on, I picked a major I probably wouldn't have picked now. My motivation was to get a BA and then try to finish a MA before my grant money ran out. I wish I would have had time to play with classes so I could try out a few fields before committing. I think that is why a senior year internship in high school would be a good solution. It would give teenagers a way to try out jobs without having to commit college money to that field. If they tried health care and hated it, well, they are only 18, they can go to college and try something else.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 10, 2011, 6:00:21 AM PST
Dagny Tag says:
Being 17 years old in our culture is a very stressful time. thinking about what to do with your life, marriage, vocation, supporting yourself, military, hormones, paradigms, etc.

It very important that schools allow the individual to determine their intelligent purpose and I do not mean getting a job. Teaching philosophy, morals, ethics and virtue with integrity and sustainability should be the number one goal. We can not let government and big business direct our lives. We need to recognize when we are being manipulated for their gain. We need to have a sense of community and culture to have a stable good life.

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Posted on May 10, 2011, 9:14:27 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on May 10, 2011, 9:15:13 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 2, 2012, 11:08:30 PM PST
Swedey says:
A different DRM plays here.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 3, 2012, 6:15:06 AM PST
Dagny Tag says:
"different DRM plays here. "
=================
A well educated person looks at different views not a fixed dogma. CA especially wants more service and less taxes. It is game they play as they do not think long term. In the end they population needs to decrease not grow. No one will bring that to the table.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 4, 2012, 1:57:40 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 4, 2012, 2:26:50 AM PST
It seems like a film of great interest, but there isn't a clear course of action indicated.

This sort of criticism of the Public School System merely seems to highlight the conclusion of John Taylor Gatto ("Dumming Us Down"), Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling, 10th Anniversary Edition in that the only justification for the Public School System, is that it exists So--That---Education---Doesn't---Work.

Therefore, films critical of Public Education like this one, seem to rather miss the point, because they suppose a priori, that the Public School System exists "for education" when it doesn't.

Gatto indicated that Public Schools exist to teach confusion, and from what this film would seem to show, the Public School System is doing a very good job of teaching confusion, and moreover, obtaining an endless supply of the Taxpayer's Dollar to continue teaching confusion to American youth.

Why therefore, the complaint?

Forum member "Lisareads" writes:

=================================

"It seems that the system does turn out successful adults."-----sentence 2 of paragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Feb 6, 2012 4:47:09 PM PST
regarding the discussion topic, "How Big is the Scandal?" on http://Amazon.com

===================================

Films like this, so far as I can tell, conclude that Public Education works reasonably well, but requires some "adjustment" or "alteration" so as to make it Work---More---Efficiently.

That's a bit of an Urban Myth. Public Education continues to fail to educate, which makes it a tremendous success, seeing that its very purpose, as John Tayler Gatto recognized, was to teach "confusion".

Many decades ago, Frank Zappa published a song entitled "Hungry Freaks Daddy" in which the following lyrics appear.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=now-037FlIA

"Hungry Freaks, Daddy" by Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention
"Mister America
Walk on by
Your schools that do not teach
Mister America
Walk on by
The minds that won't be reached"
.

.

This may also be compared with the lyrics of "Pink Floyd" who wrote as follows:

=====================================================

HAPPIEST DAYS OF OUR LIVES
"Well, when we grew up and went to school,
There were certain teachers,
Who would hurt the children in any way they could,
By pouring their derision,
Upon anything we did,
Exposing every weakness,
However carefully hidden by the kids."-----Pink Floyd, "THE WALL"


ANOTHER BRICK IN THE WALL Part II
"We don't need no education.
We don't need no thought control."-----Pink Floyd, "THE WALL"






"What have we here laddie?
Mysterious Couplets?
A Secret Code?
No, ... poems no less! Poems everybody!
The laddie reckons himself a poet!

'Money gets back
I'm all right Jack
Keep your hands off my stack
New car, Caviar,
Four star daydream
twinkle by me
A football team'

Absolute rubbish, laddie!
(smack!)
Get on with your work!
Repeat after me:
An acre is the area of a rectangle whose legs ....etc.
----Pink Floyd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U

====================================================

.

.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 4, 2012, 7:31:10 AM PST
Dagny Tag says:
If you like Gatto you will also find these interesting.

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/index.html

Lost in the Meritocracy: The Undereducation of an Overachiever

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 4, 2012, 2:24:06 PM PST
"Lisareads" I do think that John Taylor Gatto has conducted a powerful and scholarly research into the history of Education in the USA and abroad.

What I cannot figure out, is how you concluded that THE SYSTEM DOES TURN OUT SUCCESSFUL ADULTS:

.

.

=================================

"It seems that the system does turn out successful adults."-----sentence 2 of paragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Feb 6, 2012 4:47:09 PM PST
regarding the discussion topic, "How Big is the Scandal?" on http://Amazon.com

===================================

.

.

That was not the conclusion of John Taylor Gatto, but then, your thinking seems to shift with every comment you publish here.

.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 4, 2012, 3:12:25 PM PST
Dagny Tag says:
"That was not the conclusion of John Taylor Gatto, but then, your thinking seems to shift with every comment you publish here."
====================
Perhaps we have very different views of life. Success does not have to mean money or accomplishments. As any system some manage to get something out of it but the majority of the education industry including publishing houses for home schooling and private schools turn out widgets to slave for those in power.

One Size Does Not Fit All: A Student's Assessment of School
You and your computer need to billions of categories if you want to catalog and expect what people are going to do. I do not fit your program. Gatto still did not get it right but he points out some of the problems. The concept of classrooms is not right for everyone either is home schooling or private schools. If one wants to live in a free sex society than perhaps sex with students is normal however if one is a Christian perhaps same sex marriage is not OK. That is why having a United States should only be for defence and not education or the millions of other federal laws. Each community can set its own standard. You will never know if Gatto had sex with a student because he was not caught.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 4, 2012, 4:22:29 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 4, 2012, 4:31:02 PM PST
ISSUE THE FIRST
===============================================

"Perhaps we have very different views of life."----sentence 1 of paragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Dec 4, 2012 3:12:25 PM PST regarding the discussion topic,
"Film About High Stress In Schools" on Amazon.com

=========================================================

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(1) That argument is demonstrative of the common logical error designated the Fallacy of the Red Herring.

DIFFERENT VIEWS OF LIFE is not the issue. The issue is that you are claiming that the Public School System in the United States turns out what you call "successful adults" and I quote:

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=================================

"It seems that the system does turn out successful adults."-----sentence 2 of paragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Feb 6, 2012 4:47:09 PM PST
regarding the discussion topic, "How Big is the Scandal?" on http://Amazon.com

===================================
.

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(2) That is not the conclusion of John Taylor Gatto.

In a most explicit contradiction of your conception of American Public Education, John Tayler Gatto concludes as follows:

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================================================

"Mass schooling damages children.
We don't need any more of it.
And under the guise that it is the same thing as education,
it has been picking our pockets just as Socrates predicted it would
thousands of years ago. One of the surest wasy to recognize real education
is by the fact that it doesn't cost very much
doesn't depend on expensive toys or gadgets.
The experiences that produce it and the self-awareness that propels it are nearly free.
It is hard ot turn a dollar on education.
But schooling is a wonderful hustle, getting sharper all the time."-------paragraph 1 of p. 70 of the paperback edition of Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling, 10th Anniversary Edition

"Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling," 10th Anniversary Edition by John Taylor Gatto and Thomas Moore copyright 2005, (original edition 1992)

================================================

.

.

(3) Therefore, the know---it---all attitude you display in the public media is a complete contradiction, because you cannot logically endorse the thought on "mass schooling" as published by John Taylor Gatto, and at the same time, claim that the same "mass schooling" produces
SUCCESSFUL ADULTS.

.

.

(4) Moreover, your claim as to SUCCESSFUL ADULTS is demonstrative of the common logical error designated the Fallay of the Dicto Simpliciter ("Sweeping Generalization") because you have identified no data which indicates in specific what a SUCCESSFUL ADULT is.

(5) Your thinking is further confused, because you neglect to comprehend what John Taylor Gatto's title refers to. "Dumbing Us Down" is a reference to what Public Education ("mass schooling") does to American youth.

You haven't a clue "Lisareads" and I seriously doubt that you even read Gatto's book.

.
You're simply full of it, and you completely demonstrate the common tactic of all Gonzo Journalists which is to argue an issue from opposite perspectives at the same time, in various instances claiming that all opposing views are true.

.
No objective thinker need cede credibility to confused arguments such as you publish in the public media.

Remember; it is incumbent upon you to offer a Logical, rather than an Illogical argument.

.
.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 4, 2012, 5:42:05 PM PST
Dagny Tag says:
"No objective thinker need cede credibility to confused arguments such as you publish in the public media.

Remember; it is incumbent upon you to offer a Logical, rather than an Illogical argument."
=============
If it takes a book to explain a situation what makes you think you can do it with a logical computer summary?
The facts speak for them selves and they do not come to a conclusion for all. Obviously public education serves for good survival of many as well as a destruction for many. A success is what you want success to stand for. Making money may be a success for some yet devotion to God may be it for others. You logic does not hold for humans. For me it is giving my curiosity a work out. No money or beliefs needed in fact I do not even consider having emotions as a successful life.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2012, 9:59:10 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 5, 2012, 10:04:38 AM PST
ISSUE THE FIRST

===========================================

"A success is what you want success to stand for."------sentence 4 of pragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Dec 4, 2012 5:42:05 PM PST regarding the the discussion topic,
"Film About High Stress In Schools" on Amazon.com

=========================================================

.

.

(1) That is an excellent demonstration of the Fallacy of the Ipse Dixit
("Fallacy---of---the---Bare Assertion") my friend. Either you know where of you write or you don't, and as you have no objective data to substantiate your assertion, your fallacious reasoning is dismissible outright.

.

.

ISSUE THE SECOND

===================================================

"You logic does not hold for humans."---------- sentence 6 of pragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Dec 4, 2012 5:42:05 PM PST regarding the the discussion topic,
"Film About High Stress In Schools" on Amazon.com

====================================================

.

.

(1) That is an excellent demonstration of the Fallacy of the Ipse Dixit
("Fallacy---of---the---Bare Assertion") my friend. Either you know whereof you write or you don't, and as you have no objective data to substantiate your assertion, your fallacious reasoning is dismissible outright.

(2) Furthermore, Aristotelian Logic is the foundation of Science, Philosophy, Law and Theology.

Where you are getting your data from, it is simpy erroneous, and you are massively uninformed.

.

.

Posted on Dec 5, 2012, 11:42:20 AM PST
Dagny Tag says:
(2) Furthermore, Aristotelian Logic is the foundation of Science, Philosophy, Law and Theology."
========
I am not Aristotle and I also am not objective data. I am a creative human that is not efficient or logical. The fallacious reasoning is lack of understanding what it to be human.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2012, 2:52:50 PM PST
ISSUE THE FIRST
=================================================

"I am a creative human that is not efficient or logical."-----sentence 2 of paragaph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Dec 5, 2012 11:42:20 AM PST regarding the the discussion topic,
"Film About High Stress In Schools" on Amazon.com

=========================================================

.
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(1) Nothing you have written in this forum demonstrates that you are CREATIVE.

(2) Agreed, you are not Logical.

(3) Agreed, you are not Efficient.

(4) You have provided no evidence of FALLACIOUS REASONING.
You would have to be LOGICAL to identify a Logical Fallacy, and you have already indicated that you are not Logical.

.

.
ISSUE THE SECOND

=====================================================

"The fallacious reasoning is lack of understanding what it to be human."------------- sentence 3 of paragaph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Dec 5, 2012 11:42:20 AM PST regarding the the discussion topic,
"Film About High Stress In Schools" on Amazon.com

======================================================

.

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(1) You have neglected to demonstrate that BEING HUMAN is relevent to this discussion topic.

The subject of the dialogue here is Stresseful Public Education.

Provided that you expend some effort, it may be that you can write something factually relevent to the discussion topic, or something that is logically consistent, but the fact is that you are clueless, and that is demonstrated by the fact that you wrote as follows:

.

.

=================================

"It seems that the system does turn out successful adults."-----sentence 2 of paragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Feb 6, 2012 4:47:09 PM PST
regarding the discussion topic, "How Big is the Scandal?" on http://Amazon.com

===================================
.

.

That is not the conclusion of John Taylor Gatto.

In a most explicit contradiction of your conception of American Public Education, John Tayler Gatto concludes as follows:

.

.

================================================

"Mass schooling damages children.
We don't need any more of it.
And under the guise that it is the same thing as education,
it has been picking our pockets just as Socrates predicted it would
thousands of years ago. One of the surest wasy to recognize real education
is by the fact that it doesn't cost very much
doesn't depend on expensive toys or gadgets.
The experiences that produce it and the self-awareness that propels it are nearly free.
It is hard ot turn a dollar on education.
But schooling is a wonderful hustle, getting sharper all the time."-------paragraph 1 of p. 70 of the paperback edition of Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling, 10th Anniversary Edition

"Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling," 10th Anniversary Edition by John Taylor Gatto and Thomas Moore copyright 2005, (original edition 1992)

================================================

.
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Of course, if you prefer to be shown to be entirely irrational, that is your option.

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In reply to an earlier post on Dec 5, 2012, 2:59:21 PM PST
Dagny Tag says:
"That is not the conclusion of John Taylor Gatto."
============================
Gatto does not have all the facts and he was educated in Public and church school.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012, 10:17:28 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2012, 10:37:48 AM PST
Thank you for the comment "Lisareads". How are you?

Let's examine your claim in the context of Fact and Logic, shall we?

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.

ISSUE THE FIRST

=================================

"Gatto does not have all the facts and he was educated in Public and church school."-----sentence 1 of paragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Dec 5, 2012 2:59:21 PM PST regarding the the discussion topic,
"Film About High Stress In Schools" on Amazon.com

=========================================================

.

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(1) First my friend, you have failed to show that where or how John Taylor Gatto was "educated" has a direct bearing upon the facts the author presents.

(2) Secondly, your conclusions remains unsubstantiated by any objective source, and in that regard, your conclusion can be dismissed for being a Fallacy of the Ipse Dixit
("The----Bare Assertion---Fallacy").

.

.

(3) When you claim that the author hasn't ALL THE FACTS, you fail to objectively identify what
ALL THE FACTS are, or even what ALL the relevent FACTS are, and actually, you haven't identified any issue of fact at all as to American Public Education.

Moreover, "Lisareads" you have failed to identify any omitted facts concerning American Public Education.

.

.

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(4) What is factually known of the author, John Taylor Gatto?

(a) He has a website. http://johntaylorgatto.com/

(b)John Taylor Gatto is a retired American school teacher with nearly 30 years experience in the classroom, and author of several books on education.

.

(c) John Taylor Gatto was named New York City Teacher of the Year in 1989, 1990, and 1991, and New York State Teacher of the Year in 1991.

.

(d) John Taylor's Gatto's essay "Against School" can be read online, @

http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm

(e) John Taylor Gatto has published an abundant array of his researches into the history of American Education, and its roots in foreign models, inclusive of its patterning on the German Model popularized in Germany in the years leading up to World War I.

.

Writings and lectures
"Against School" - originally published in Harper's Magazine, September 2003
"The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher" - originally published in Whole Earth Review, Fall 1991
A set of quotes from Gatto and links to original essays
"Institutional Schooling Must Be Destroyed"
"The Tyranny Of Compulsory Schooling"
"The Public School Nightmare: Why fix a system designed to destroy individual thought?", article published by Diablo Valley School
"Why Schools Don't Educate - Teacher of the Year acceptance speech"
"A Short Angry History of American Forced Schooling"
Book reviews by Layla AR
Everything We Think About Schooling Is Wrong! - Interview with Gatto (PDF file download)
"Against School" - originally published in Harper's Magazine, September 2003
A set of quotes from Gatto and links to original essays

Multimedia
Bartleby Project 2010 on YouTube
4th Purpose Promo - Trailer for The Fourth Purpose
John Gatto Keynote Talks - Video: Five complete keynote talks by John Gatto (2004-2010)
Altruists.org - download audio files of some of Gatto's talks
Video of Gatto interview, broken into topic sections
Speech at a home schooling Conference by Radio for Peace (MP3)
The Lew Rockwell Show, Aug 25, 2010
Collection of Gatto Files, mainly MP3s

.

.

(f) Amazon.com lists the following books published by John Taylor Gatto:

Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling, 10th Anniversary Edition

(g) http://www.amazon.com/Weapons-Mass-Instruction-Schoolteachers-
Compulsory/dp/0865716692/ref=la_B001K7S0AE_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1354818544&sr=1-2

(h) A Different Kind of Teacher: Solving the Crisis of American Schooling

(i) The Exhausted School: Bending the Bars of Traditional Education

DVD's and other MULTIMEDIA include:

(j) The Ultimate History Lesson: A Weekend with John Taylor Gatto

The following historical research into Education is described as follows:

.

.

The "Editorial" Reviews on Amazon.com indicate:

The Ultimate History Lesson with John Taylor Gatto / by Monica Perez
About the Monica Perez Show: Monica Perez is a married mother of three, and she has an associate s degree in liberal arts from Rockland Community College, a bachelor s degree from Harvard University with a concentration in economics, a law degree from Stanford Law School and a master s in business administration from Stanford Graduate School of Business. She is a Chartered Financial Analyst and a member of the bar of the State of New York.

If you've never heard of John Taylor Gatto you are really missing something. John Taylor Gatto was New York City Teacher of the Year three times when he worked in Harlem. He quit his job, while still holding the title of Teacher of the Year, in an op-ed article in the Wall Street Journal saying that he no longer wished to hurt children. Gatto is one of those very rare people (like Ron Paul) who have the intelligence, character, drive and interest to pursue the truth for its own sake, to actually succeed in uncovering some of it and to share it with those of us ready to recognize it.

I clicked on the link to this five-hour interview with John Taylor Gatto and proceeded to watch the ENTIRE thing in ONE SITTING!!! It s just fascinating. Although Gatto is a wealth of information, insight and revelations, he is also a joy to watch. Witnessing his honesty, curiosity, intelligence, sanity and good judgment are testaments to what is finest in man and I doubt I would tire of listening to him ever so rich, broad and deep is his wealth of knowledge.

But beyond the general joy of learning I get when I listen to Gatto, I find that his contribution is most relevant to me in two specific ways:

First, Gatto lays out a comprehensive, novel (nowadays anyway) and scrupulously thought-out and tested approach to education.

Second, Gatto explains the history of modern schooling and how and why we moved away from his traditional, intuitive approach to educating our young to what we have today, which he clearly distinguishes as schooling as opposed to education.

The first element an alternative approach to education Gatto lays out and illustrates with examples from his own experiences as a teacher. Unfortunately, the prospect of trying to implement this radically different approach to educating my own children within the structure of my typical suburban life daunts me.

This documentary provides an introduction to the idea of what it means to educate our children, both with respect to goals and to methods, but it is not intended to provide step by step instruction on how to make this happen overnight in your own life, rather it s intended, it seems, to prompt us to begin the journey.

My guess is homeschooling is a great start (and end?) but it would take me, for one, some time to get used to the lifestyle change THAT would entail!

The second element the history and purposes of modern schooling is nothing short of fascinating. Anyone who is prone to dismiss conspiracy theories as baseless notions held by irrational nutjobs, should watch this documentary.

Gatto doesn t go off on the Illuminati or the New World Order, he doesn t rave about the power elite or the Anglo-American establishment, but as his story unfolds and he merely tells of the history of modern education which is really the history of today s society the books, events, people, relationships, institutions and theories he has come to understand over the course of his earnest investigations speak for themselves.

The rare occasions when he was opining rather than reporting he clearly marks.

Of course his conclusions based on what he s uncovered are also his own, but he relates his facts and reasoning along the way and make it clear these are the most rational conclusions given the evidence. --The Monica Perez Show

Product Description
The Ultimate History Lesson: A Weekend with John Taylor Gatto First Edition, 2nd Printing Former New York City and New York State School Teacher of the Year, John Taylor Gatto, illustrates HOW and WHY our public schools are dumbing us down... and what We can do about it. With more than 200 footnotes, and more than 30 classic texts referenced; this 5-hour interview session, memorializing John s research, publications, and life experiences, forms an impeccable family resource and reference library of The Underground History of American Education. Each hour focuses on examining the evolution of ideas, which manifest today in the phenomenon of public schooling. By dissecting the history and presenting you with the references, you re left at the end of each hour, with a copious amount of information to digest; from which you can continue your own personal journey of discovery. This interview also includes solutions, documents, and references; asking only that you consider the information THINK FOR YOURSELF and communicate with others in order to share a higher-level of awareness, thus protecting ourselves from financial predators. This presentation is offered as a public service thanks to the generosity the subscribers of the Tragedy and Hope online community, which is an international research and study group, composed of individuals who have screened our productions, and seek to take the next-steps in enacting strategic solutions. The main thesis of John s body of work can best be illustrated in my opinion by asking the question: What do public schools actually teach children? , and answering it with the main themes contained in John s first book, printed in 1992, titled Dumbing Us Down , he makes the following observations about how public schools are designed in form and function: 1. Public schooling teaches confusion by breaking coherence. It presents an ensemble of information that the child needs to memorize to stay in school. 2. Public Schooling teaches them to accept their class affiliation. 3. Public Schooling makes them indifferent and suppresses natural curiosity. 4. Public Schooling makes them emotionally dependent on approval from authority. 5. Public Schooling makes them intellectually dependent on experts and authorities to think on their behalf. 6. Public Schooling teaches them a kind of self-confidence that requires constant confirmation by experts and authorities (provisional self-esteem). 7. Public Schooling makes it clear to them that they are always supervised, under surveillance, and cannot hide; especially in today s society where everything online is tracked and private information is sold in a variety of ways to a variety of predators. Bibliography: John s poetic prose and diligent documentation can be studied in his prodigious preponderance of publications; including: 1. Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling (1992) 2. The Exhausted School (1993) 3. A Different Kind of Teacher: Solving the Crisis of American Schooling (2000) 4. The Underground History of American Education (2001) 5. Against School published by Harper s Magazine (2003) 6. Weapons of Mass Instruction: A Schoolteacher s Journey through the Dark World of Compulsory Schooling (2008)

=======================================================

.

.

CONCLUSION:

Suffice it to say "Lisareads" that you are uninformed as to any factual issue concerning John Taylor Gatto, whose scholarly researches into the history of American Education are entirely adequate as to their factuality and their veracity.

.

Remember; it is incumbent upon you to offer a Logical, rather than an Illogical argument.

.

In reply to an earlier post on Dec 6, 2012, 11:41:26 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2012, 11:52:23 AM PST
Dagny Tag says:
(f) Amazon.com lists the following books published by John Taylor Gatto:
===========
Amazon makes mistakes as the computers are programed by humans The Underground History of American Education from Amazon and it had the author listed wrong.

Conclusion: never absolutely trust computers or the data they use for their logic.
In that book he gives his history as well. He also tells the exact same story of the lunch truck twice as he made mistakes in his computer assembly of the book.

The Underground History of American Education by James Graham (2001)
(49 customer reviews)
Formats Price New Used
Paperback
$125.99 $79.99

Posted on Dec 6, 2012, 2:15:52 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Dec 6, 2012, 2:37:23 PM PST
ISSUE THE FIRST
=======================================================

"Amazon makes mistakes as the computers are programed by humans The Underground History of American Education from Amazon and it had the author listed wrong."------------sentence 1 of paragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads"
on Dec 6, 2012 11:41:26 AM PST regarding the the discussion topic,
"Film About High Stress In Schools" on Amazon.com

=========================================================

.

.

(1) First, your conclusion is demonstrative of the common logical error designated the Fallacy of the Non Sequitur.
("It---Does---Not---Follow"). It does not logically follow that because an internet book seller has a confused fact in its data entry, that author John Taylor Gatto DOES NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS, as you indicated when you published the following claim:

.

.

=================================

"Gatto does not have all the facts and he was educated in Public and church school."-----sentence 1 of paragraph 2, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Dec 5, 2012 2:59:21 PM PST regarding the the discussion topic,
"Film About High Stress In Schools" on Amazon.com

=========================================================

.

.
(2) I clicked on the link for the title you provided, and it clearly indicates that John Taylor Gatto is the author on the Amazon webpage, and also on the cover of the book.

What are you writing about in regard to an Amazon Error? You have no objective source data which shows that John Taylor Gatto is not the author of the book.

I see the listing you indicate, and the variation as to the author at one location, but that is not a proof that John Taylor Gatto is not the author of the title published by John Taylor Gatto.
Gatto is the author of the title in fact, as indicated by the author's webpage.

Furthermore, regardless of any Amazon error, I would also remind you that your claims are also insincere in multiple contexts.

(A) You recommend the John Taylor Gatto book on the Amazon Forums.

(B) You are publishing your commentary on the Amazon forums, the same forums you insist that be discredited for errors in data entry.

.

.

ISSUE THE SECOND

============================================

"Conclusion: never absolutely trust computers or the data they use for their logic."------------sentence 1 of paragraph 3, from the comment of "Lisareads" on Dec 5, 2012 2:59:21 PM PST regarding the the discussion topic,
"Film About High Stress In Schools" on Amazon.com

=============================================
.
.

.
(1) That also is demonstrative of the common logical error designated the Fallacy of the Non Sequitur.
("It---Does---Not---Follow").

(2) Logically, it is self-evident that you regularly "trust" the Computer Servers which maintain the Amazon.com website.

(3) Furthermore, you have never published any objection to the Trustworthiness of the Computer Servers on that Amazon.com website.

(4) You are a member on the Amazon.com website and the anonymous handle you employ,
is "Lisareads" which you obtained by entrusting your personal identification and personal data with the Computers maintaining the Amazon.com website.

.

.

(5) None of your published remarks demonstrate what ALL THE FACTS means, in regards to your published remarks about American Education, and you certainly fail to show that John Taylor Gatto has not discovered
ALL THE FACTS in his publications.

But, let your parade of confused comments proceed I say.

.

After all "Lisareads" you are recommending the John Taylor Gatto books to all and sundry in the Amazon forums, and you have done so on multiple occasions.

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