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Customer Discussions > Enlightenment forum

Is enlightenment for everyone?


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Initial post: Jan 31, 2008, 7:43:06 PM PST
I have been studying and teaching meditation, Yoga and Qigong for the greater part of my life, yet these teachings appear to be elusive to many. I wonder whether everyone and anyone can experience enlightenment or one has to have a particularly auspicious karma for that. Any ideas?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 11, 2008, 5:23:47 AM PST
Hi Qigong Master,

I'm just a college student that is currently in a stage of exploring my spirituality. Regarding your question, my idea on it is that it is possible that a human being can attain enlightenment just like how the historical Gautama Buddha attained it. I would think that a person may not have enough insights to attain it within 1 lifetime. It seems that the theory of the soul or something of that nature living on after we died support my thought. I'm thinking that the ultimate purpose of life is to learn and be insightful of the real nature of things both material and immaterial. When we died each lifetime, I think our soul or something of that nature depart from our flesh body and travel to somewhere while carrying along our insights of that lifetime. I also think that there's also something at work that also convert our insights into a form of potentials or predispositions when the soul again join flesh body and born into a new child. This child repeats the life cycle, with each lifetime accumulating insights on the nature of life and reborn with the dispositions for higher intellectual capacity. This may take many many lifetime. There will be a lifetime when a soul has accumulated enough insights that a higher power working in ways we can not yet comprehend, place it in new lifetime with dispositions that promote the highest level of potentials for the highest level of intellectual capacity. This may be the lifetime that that person will have enough intellectual capacity to choose and actually successfully practice the spiritual way. This will lead the person to better understand the nature of the physical life and the path to enlightenment, involving knowing the truths of life and the paths to enlightenment, including the understanding of meditation. I'm sorry I may not write very clearly to illustrate my ideas better since I don't have much time. These are just my ideas that I've came up with while trying to make sense and trying to see the big picture regarding the concept of reincarnation and enlightenment and the question to the purpose of living life itself. These are just my ideas, as I'm still wondering myself just like you are.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 16, 2008, 11:00:05 AM PDT
Zenman says:
Enlightenment is absolutely for everyone!
Just read " The Disappearance of the Universe"

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 18, 2008, 4:16:14 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 4, 2008, 5:38:01 PM PDT
Thank you Zenman for reassuring me about the accessibility of enlightenment. I will read about the disappearance of the universe at some point soon. I also would love to agree with SearchforPureTruth, except I am not fully convinced about the theory of reincarnation. Mind you, I have been ordained in three Buddhist monastic orders (Tibetan, Thai and Japanese) and yet find these theories just that - theories.

How about the theory of enlightenment as a field experience, rather than an individual experience, since experiencing oneness is a hallmark of being enlightened? If that is true, once you are enlightened, your entire world is enlightened at once with all its inhabitants. You may compare it to becoming lucid in a dream. If there are any dream characters insisting that they are not in a dream, they reflect those aspects of your consciousness that are not awake yet. Hence the idea of a Boddhisattva, a spiritual aspirant who cannot enter Nirvana until all sentient beings (dream characters in the Boddhisattva's dream) become enlightened.

In reply to an earlier post on Mar 18, 2008, 6:19:49 PM PDT
key2time says:
Hi SearchForPureTruths, I've been with a Buddhist Wisdom Master for 15 years; we have learned that the ONLY purpose of living a physical existence is to discover (or, actually, to remember) Who we really are. The rest of your "ideas" (as you put it), as best I can interpret your writing, are correct. While we all have the capacity to remember, it usually takes many, many lifetimes to "get it". I see your so-called "wondering" as actual intuition on the subject. There is one concept you put forth, though, that I don't agree with. You say that at a certain point a person will have enough "intellectual" capacity to become enlightened (if I read it correctly). Actually, children are better at remembering who they are than adults. And one of the most intuitive persons I knew was actually mentally challenged as far as IQ was concerned. It takes, to me, more of an intuition; an insight; a non-thinking sort of action to hit on the recognition of your True Self. Children are not as bogged down in linear thinking as are adults. Where you speak of many lifetimes, wherein a soul will finally have enough insight and predisposition to grasp enlightenment, are what are generally referred to as karma. All the lifetimes, containing all those experiences, will eventually help lead one to enlightenment. A person doesn't necessarily have to experience hundreds and hundreds of lifetimes to get there, but that is generally how it happens. I hope this helps. :)

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2008, 11:56:24 AM PDT
AC says:
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 1, 2008, 2:10:16 PM PDT
Qigong Master,

Thank you for stating your disagreement with the reincarnation theory. At the time of my writing the other post, I have not understand enough about what really pass on after our death. I still haven't fully understand, but now I'm leaning more toward the idea that karmic energy is what pass on after death. If anyone can help me understand more about how and what pass on after death, I would love to hear about it.
Hi key2time, after much reading into some Buddhist's writing online and reflecting on what I've learned in my Cognitive Psychology class, I'm now leaning toward a similar conclusion as yours regarding the purpose in life. My thoughts now involve the idea that it is the right effort to live life practicing mindfulness since our mind is the gateway for us to learn the truth about the illusions of ourself and the nature of things. It is a right effort to practice our mind to master the Eightfold Path.
Angelo Cruz, thank you for your post, but also be aware that a person can easily be deceived. I have came to the realization that I myself, just like you and everyone can be deceived if I don't have the right view and mindfulness. I have came to the conclusion that there are many aspects of the Bible and its interpretations to be deceiving.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 2, 2008, 9:56:42 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 2, 2008, 9:57:47 PM PDT
Right on, Search For Pure Truths! As there appear to be many paths to experience enlightenment, those who proselytize one and only truth are most likely deluding themselves while trying to deceive others to jump on their band wagon. No worries though, they too are bound to become enlightened as you experience enlightenment. Like in a dream, in our daily lives, we can only see ignorance or deception in others as mere reflections of such aspects of our own consciousness that dreamed up those dream characters.

Now, a funny thing about karma is the often repeated notion about the necessity to make it "good" in order to experience enlightenment. The way I view karma is similar to a soap bubble surrounding a human being from birth. Metaphorically, all the rainbow colors making the surface of our soap bubble so colorful represent various frequencies of the energy of consciousness, just like they represent different frequencies of the electromagnetic waves perceived as the visible spectrum of light. As though looking from the inside of the bubble through different color lenses, different patches of color on the surface of the bubble paint the view in their respective directions in their respective colors. At birth, the bubble may be quite clear and translucent, but the more we run into other people and various sentient beings, the more stuff from their bubbles sticks to ours. Hence our perception of everything gets painted in certain colors associated with the consciousness of those we meet and learn from. We have to be learning a whole lot while growing up, so by the time we become adults, out bubbles are covered with a patchwork of various colors. Due to the beliefs that also rub off of the others onto us, we develop certain preferences as to the colors we choose to look at everything through. Some of the colors may be labeled "good" or "bad," depending on the belief system (pattern of colors) we choose to identify with. Such selective perception may eventually leave us with a rather narrow field of vision.

The longer we maintain such a tunnel vision, the more we tend to develop our identity on the basis of the filters we deem most important. The soap bubble that initially was extremely light and pliable can eventually grow into a heavy, rigid shell encapsulating us. Although it may serve as a protective shield at times, most often, it is the burden we carry around everywhere with us, because we cannot even imagine living without it any more. While many psychologists recognize that this is a poetic description of the ego, most Buddhists and Hindus would say that this is karma.

Making karma "good" is like decorating the walls of your prison cell while having the keys to the lock on its door. Remembering who we really are is similar to shifting attention from the walls of the bubble to the inner essence of the being inside of it. One of the most fascinating discoveries awaiting us when we make such a maneuver of consciousness is the sense of oneness between the microcosm inside and the macrocosm outside the bubble. How can we know that our inner nature is one with the nature of the world at large? It is possible to let go of some filters that constitute the walls of our bubble of perception thus opening window of perception. Well, at first that may feel as though opening a tiny porthole in the wall of the bubble, since it is often scary to let go of the protective layers that we have gotten so used to. With practice, this process of letting go and opening wider and wider windows may bring us to the point when there are no more wall but just window open all over the surface of our former bubble. This is what I call enlightenment.

Is it for everyone? Perhaps, it is much easier to experience it when the bubble is not as heavy yet, thus children may have an easier time experiencing it. But they tend to continuously learn from others, which may contribute new layers upon layers of fresh filters covering the open windows, of course, depending on their upbringing. This process (and I consider enlightenment a process rather than a final destination of a spiritual journey) usually requires some degree of independence and self-reliance, so munch so that we need to be OK with the idea of relinquishing any old beliefs and stereotypes of thinking that are a part of the social agreements binding us despite the fact that we never consciously agreed to most of them.

This strength of spirit and determination (called bodhichitta in Sanskrit) is what I teach and practice. I will probably write a book dedicated to this process in addition to my recent book entitled The Art of Being in the Flow. You are very welcome to ask me any questions related to enlightenment, although most answers can be found within.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2008, 5:03:01 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jun 3, 2008, 5:07:10 PM PDT
Lama Tantrapa,

That is a very thought-provoking metaphor for viewing karma. Is karma then a form of energy?
I have realized that I have not directly addressed your first question regarding whether everyone and anyone can experience enlightenment. My idea on enlightenment is that it is a very very rare occurrence. For the time being, my metaphor of that chance is liken to winning a lottery. Everyone has a chance to take part, but the chance of winning is let's say 1 in a billion. To be enlightened, I would imagine that the chance is even much slimmer than that. There are 8 conditions in the Eightfold Path, namely, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Within each condition there are many "subconditions"? that must be practiced and take place for a person to master that condition. For example, many people are still even struggling with right view of which religion or path to stay on. Unlike in a lottery where in a condition let's say there's 1 in 70 chance of getting the number right, to master "right view", a person must be born in a good biological condition, must have a potential intellectual capacity, must encounter the teaching of the Buddha, must reason that the Buddha's teaching is the right path...and many many other condtions that must take place for that person to master right view. Now imagine the chance of mastering ALL of the Eightfold path. And not just that but a person must also PRACTICE them. I would imagine that the chance of being enlightened is so very slim that of all the people that has ever existed these several thousands years, only Buddha has became enlightened. BUT perhaps he has decided to teach us is because EVERYONE can be on the process of mastering the Eightfold Path and has the potential to become enlightened. Even being in the process of mastering the Eightfold Path can help people lessen their suffering.
Can you expand more on why you consider enlightenment as a process rather than the completion of the process? For myself, I have always considered enlightenment meaning you have practiced and mastered all aspects of the Eightfold Path and became a Buddha yourself. I also think that the process toward enlightenment itself is the realization and practicing of the Eightfold path. I agree with you on this point when you said:
"With practice, this process of letting go and opening wider and wider windows may bring us to the point when there are no more wall but just window open all over the surface of our former bubble. This is what I call enlightenment."

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 3, 2008, 5:20:30 PM PDT
Enlightenment is for no-one. And unavoidable. For those who can wait infinitely, it happens instantaneously :-) Great question, Lama Tantrapa - Thank You.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008, 5:14:44 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008, 5:28:40 PM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 4, 2008, 5:36:13 PM PDT
Thank you for a poignant question about enlightenment. Why do I believe that enlightenment is a process rather than a final destination? To find the answer to this question, we need to recall one the main tenets of Buddhism - the principle of impermanence. The historical Buddha Shakyamuni realized, as probably did many other more or less enlightened beings before and after him, that change is the most constant thing in this universe. Nothing exists forever or even remains permanent. This applies to enlightenment too, since we all have a tendency to fall asleep even after the most profound awakenings. If the enlightened state is just as impermanent as anything else, then it makes much better sense to speak of enlightenment not as a state but as a process of awakening, which may go through certain phases and be as cyclical as most other natural phenomena.

A Mahayana approach to enlightenment - the path of Bodhisattva - also suggests that even one thoroughly ready to experience enlightenment may choose to remain in the world of Sansara to fulfill the vow of enlightening all the sentient beings. The Bodhisattva may be committed to this vow not only out of compassion, but also out of recognition of the dream-like nature of reality. As in a dream, where all dream characters are essentially products of the dreaming mind of the dreamer, so in the life of the Bodhisattva, all sentient beings are dreamed up by the Bodhisattva's consciousness. Therefore, that consciousness cannot claim to be fully awake if any of the dream characters are not awake reflecting those aspects of the consciousness that are asleep. Since every second bazillions of new sentient beings are being born and need to experience enlightenment moment by moment, the Bodhisattva must sooner or later realize that Nirvana is not to be sought somewhere outside of Sansara, but rather in the midst of it. (This is not my thesis - many Buddhist sutras suggest exactly this).

Now, from a practical perspective, can enlightenment be experienced more than once? What did Buddha do after he experienced it? Did he continue traveling the eight-fold path? Had he already got all there was to get out of this path, he would have not needed to continue meditating and practicing anything anymore. Living an enlightened lifestyle is not only what one does after experiencing enlightenment, but also a journey allowing to experiencing it each and every step along the way. That is why I believe that enlightenment is the journey itself, not the destination.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 18, 2008, 8:53:02 AM PDT
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In reply to an earlier post on Jun 18, 2008, 3:58:30 PM PDT
"If the enlightened state is just as impermanent as anything else, then it makes much better sense to speak of enlightenment not as a state but as a process of awakening, which may go through certain phases and be as cyclical as most other natural phenomena."

Enlightenment is beyond cyclical, natural phenomena. Enlightenment is the end of all phenomena and all change. Once Enlightenment is there, it never had a beginning and will never have an end, nor will it have any boundaries. Enlightenment is not a journey or a destination because it exists outside of time or space. Even un-enlightenment cannot touch it. What you call "process of awakening" is but lighter stages of sleep. Of that there are indeed many, and very subtle ones that seem to be enlightenment. It is a big mistake to apply the concept of impermanence to enlightenment.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 18, 2008, 4:34:59 PM PDT
Mayke,

If you do not follow the line of reasoning presented in the Buddhist teachings of impermanence and Nirvana existing in the midst of Sansara, what informs you about enlightenment? In other words, how do you know that no laws of reason or logic apply to enlightenment? If you have attained enlightenment and are speaking from your personal observations, I would love to learn more from you about enlightenment. However, if you view it as such a mystery that you believe it to be beyond human knowledge or comprehension, than you are actually stating that you know nothing about this subject and do not understand it. Please do not take the last sentence personally, as it is not meant to be an assault but just a logical continuation of your own statement. In such case, it would be reasonable to continue our exchange for the sake or learning.

In reply to an earlier post on Jun 21, 2008, 12:07:49 AM PDT
Lama Tantrapa,

You are a very logical and respectful person. I am not offended, so let's continue this discussion. There is no-one here to be offended, just words appearing on my screen and words appearing on your screen. I trust I can speak openly as well without anything being taken as a personal attack. So let's continue -

You are right, either enlightenment is my own experience or I know nothing about it. Luckily we do not have to decide, because there is a third truth.

Consider Koans. Koans serve to take us beyond our mind which - for enlightenment - needs to be transcended beyond even ideas of interconnectedness, impermanence, and enlightenment. Makes it hard to write and talk about it, but we can try to hint at the very truth that is beyond words and ideas. Otherwise we would just be philosophers - something Buddha warned about.

Your above statement "impermanence and Nirvana existing in the midst of Sansara" I completely agree with. Maybe I misunderstand how you interpret that. I understood that you meant enlightenment itself is subject to impermanence and various stages. That is different from it existing in the midst of Sansara. Enlightenment, as a word and idea in our minds, is indeed impermanent and everything you say about it then would be correct. What I am saying is that enlightenment itself is beyond the mind and the body. Until we know, remember and recognize ourselves beyond our mind and body, we will miss it, although it is ever present.

Allow me to address some of the other things you said:

"Therefore, that consciousness cannot claim to be fully awake if any of the dream characters are not awake reflecting those aspects of the consciousness that are asleep."

To an enlightened one everyone is enlightened. That is true. But it sounds like you mean that to an enlightened one the world seems full of enlightened people. The world is full of people who don't realize that they are enlightened. Masters who give koans, for example, try to trick us into stumbling onto the truth where we discover ourselves beyond mind and body. This truth is ever present and beyond doubt. To an enlightened one, we are all like the professor frantically looking for his glasses that are on top of his head. What could be easier and more difficult than trying to find something that isn't lost?

To say Nirvana/Enlightenment exists in the midst of Samsara is like saying the glasses are present while lost, which is a true statement.

"With practice, this process of letting go and opening wider and wider windows may bring us to the point when there are no more wall but just window open all over the surface of our former bubble. This is what I call enlightenment."

You cannot call a surface (no matter how un-wall-like) with endless open windows - enlightenment. Enlightenment is when the surface and the windows and all traces of them, are also completely vanished. I can imagine that that is what you meant to say, but it was not clear. The other potential problem with this image is that it is an "outward view" rather than an "inward view" where for example, because of the endlessly confusing and distorting bubbles one turns inward to discover the truth. In other words, complete indifference to the bubbles. If we don't understand how the bubbles are created by our minds in the first place, no matter how many are cleared with openness, more new ones will come in their place. More beautiful and transparent bubbles.

"Had he already got all there was to get out of this path, he would have not needed to continue meditating and practicing anything anymore. Living an enlightened lifestyle is not only what one does after experiencing enlightenment, but also a journey allowing to experiencing it each and every step along the way. That is why I believe that enlightenment is the journey itself, not the destination."

There is nothing "to get out of" enlightenment, or get more out of it later on. As a matter of fact one achieves nothing from enlightenment. If people knew maybe many would stop searching for it. This inner treasure is the biggest disillusionment, although the ultimate joy and relief. After enlightenment meditation, or even teaching, is no more practice, it is supreme refuge and pleasure - with no regard to its usefulness or uselessness.

A final thought on impermanence. You use impermanence and Nirvana in the same breath as if they were the same. Impermanence means the quality of not lasting forever meaning it must apply to something that has a beginning and an end. The nature of all things, even Nirvana and Enlightenment as words and ideas, or as an experience that has a beginning and an end, or something that is experienced in stages, is still all of the mind and body and therefore impermanent. Even the idea of impermanence is subject to impermanence, like all ideas.

When every thought and idea, feeling and experience is vanished - even the highest and most enlightened ones, what is left? THAT is enlightenment. It is ever present and cannot be destroyed. It is our true identity. Nothing can be said or taught about it, except what it is not.

Thank you for this exchange, Lama Tantrapa - let's see where our thinking will find agreement along the way.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 6, 2008, 11:57:40 AM PDT
There are different predispositions and tendencies for each person/seeker...a true master can tailor the teaching for the person so they can understand. Others are able to just explain their own path and perspective. Both are beneficial, but one has some limitations (certain seekers just won't get it, because that perspective does not do anything for them).

I tend to say, if someone is asking about this (interested in the topic)...then they are read for enlightenment in this lifetime. If they are not interested, they are not ready.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 7, 2008, 1:23:11 AM PDT
Mayke,

Thank you for continuing this dialogue. May all living beings benefit from it. Although I am not an expert in koans, I spent some time with several Zen masters and stayed with Aitken Roshi in Hawaii a decade ago. He seemed to be particularly excited to subject me to his koans and asked during one of our private meetings, "Who is hearing this sound," right after a dog barked in the neighborhood. I said, "You." I don't know how satisfied he was, but no more enlightening questions followed.

I am glad you noted my mentioning of viewing others as enlightened beings when being enlightened. The utmost perfection of every aspect of the dream becomes apparent to the dreamer who is awake or lucid in the dream. All dream characters are perceived as enlightened in their true nature, which then becomes the focus of attention, instead of the outer appearances and masks. Indeed, some dream characters may present themselves as quite unenlightened (due to particularly thick walls of their bubbles of perception), which should only remind the dreamer that they reflect some unenlightened aspects of the dreamer's consciousness. Rather than trying to awaken those dream characters by shaking them out of their slumber, the dreamer may need to continue awakening those aspects of his dreaming mind that are not fully aware of the dream-like nature of reality. That is what I call the path of enlightenment (rather than a path to enlightenment) that is also subject to change and impermanence.

Once you find your bubble pierced with multiple windows. you may realize that the stuff the bubble is made of (aka. karma) exists inside of it as well as all around. It is not only that the microcosm is identical to the macrocosm, but it also contains the elements of the mind stuff that we associate with being unenlightened. Therefore, not only nirvana can be found in the midst of sansara, but vice versa, too, sansara exists in the midst of nirvana. I totally concur with Bender's post as of June 4 that creating a dualistic division between sansara (existence full of suffering) from nirvana (existence free of suffering) may actually be responsible for much of human suffering.

"When every thought and idea, feeling and experience is vanished - even the highest and most enlightened ones, what is left? THAT is enlightenment." Well, I am also open to a possibility of a permanent and ultimate enlightenment, but please enlighten me as to the difference between the state you described and death or, at best, a vegetative state due to a permanent brain damage. Do you continue functioning after becoming enlightened? Do you keep "carrying water and chopping wood," as it were? If so, do you do so completely thoughtlessly and automatically or mindfully? And if you happen to do so mindfully, how do you manage to do so without any "thought and idea, feeling and experience?" If you know the answer, please share it with me and other readers. I have to admit that after realizing that I am one with everything, once in a while, I still forget that I am dreaming, as well as have yet deeper and more enlightening moments of awakening in this dream called life.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 9, 2008, 6:24:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 9, 2008, 6:26:33 PM PDT
R. Coffey says:
In the fundamental sense there is nothing to attain, as sentient beings and the Absolute, i.e., the Buddha, are not separate entities. The writings of Huang Po are very specific about this, as are many other Zen writings, i.e., 'if you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha,' meaning don't try to put another head on top of your own. You are already enlightened but due to delusions and attachment to form, you don't realize it. There is nothing to attain, but if you can remove the overlay of delusion and attachment to forms/dualism, you can realize the One Mind.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 15, 2008, 11:26:00 AM PDT
"I totally concur with Bender's post as of June 4 that creating a dualistic division between sansara (existence full of suffering) from nirvana (existence free of suffering) may actually be responsible for much of human suffering."

So do I. And the question we then need to ask is, who or what is creating this dualistic division? Once the mechanism is understood it can be paused at will until it becomes one's natural state.

"When every thought and idea, feeling and experience is vanished - even the highest and most enlightened ones, what is left? THAT is enlightenment." Well, I am also open to a possibility of a permanent and ultimate enlightenment, but please enlighten me as to the difference between the state you described and death or, at best, a vegetative state due to a permanent brain damage."

There is no difference between enlightenment and death, or permanent brain damage. Hassidic Jews for example say: "You need to die before you die."

Do you keep "carrying water and chopping wood," as it were? If so, do you do so completely thoughtlessly and automatically or mindfully?

Water gets carried and wood gets chopped. Without thought ( which is I think what you meant), naturally (not automatically like a robot), and while being fully present which maybe what you meant by mindfully. I don't much like the word mindful, as "mind-empty and present" would say it better. The practice of mindfulness can be constant chattering of the mind as in "lifting, carrying, walking, setting down," etc)

"And if you happen to do so mindfully, how do you manage to do so without any "thought and idea, feeling and experience?"

I don't. Thoughts are there, feelings are there, ideas are there, experience is there. Body and mind are there. Enlightenment means the moment it happens it is also done and finished.

"I have to admit that after realizing that I am one with everything, once in a while, I still forget that I am dreaming, as well as have yet deeper and more enlightening moments of awakening in this dream called life."

We are here to forget, and to enjoy the dream. Then dream and realization of Oneness become one. How much would we enjoy a movie if we went there to practice staying aware that it is all illusion? There would be no point in going to the movies or in "going into life". There is nothing to "admit" as if it were a failing.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 13, 2008, 11:20:34 AM PDT
I do believe that enlightenment is for everyone although certainly some of us do not have the karma for it in this life time. Just like I do not have the karma to be president, etc., in this life time. I would like to ask you to view my site which is laughingbaba.com
It is about enlightenment in the West and the role of cultural transition in terms of meditation paths and the role of the guru.

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 13, 2008, 11:29:35 AM PDT
key2time says:
Hi Luigi,

You address link does not work; are you sure you typed it correctly? I checked on AOL, Firefox, and Roadrunner, all no go.

key2time

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 13, 2008, 11:34:49 AM PDT
Thanks for asking! It's listed as laughing baba or laughingbaba on google.
The URL is www.laughingbaba.com (This is the URL not a link.) I'm not sure I can place a link in a discussion.
Let me know if you find it please.

Luigi

In reply to an earlier post on Sep 13, 2008, 12:05:37 PM PDT
key2time says:
Hi Luigi,
Yep; this time the URL worked; looks like an interesting site, but I will have to take more time to delve into it. Thanks for the info.

key2time
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