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Customer Discussions > History forum

Man Myth and Magic...

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Showing 1-25 of 38 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Jul 19, 2012, 5:35:59 AM PDT
Useful Idiot says:
I noticed that a WWII thread rambled into a thread on myth.

So I decided to start this because that was so off topic.

Myths are important and what distinguishes myth from fiction is a myth is believed. If you believe a lie that is not a myth. If you write fiction that is not a myth. Star Wars and Lord of the Rings use power mythical devices but no one thinks those stories are true.

We go then to Biblical stories or those of Homer or Hesiod and those are myths. They were belived to be true or they explained real natural events.

The Iliad may have some basis in fact, possible war or series of wars because the book was a good guide to actully find the city.

Take real people that we have myths, George Washington Abe Lincoln, Audy Murphy and Davy Crocket. Those are great Americans that create American Mythology. There are myths of the T34 that is was a super tank but it had its faws and drawbacks. What it does express the ideal tank or allow up to use it to project what an ideal tank is.

You also have as Kermit would say about frogs and warts.

One contemporay even to the the Iliad does interest me which is the Exodus story. It is very mythical but there is no question that Egypt existed but after that there is scant evidence of the story. When we look at Homer's story and try to scrape the pieces of the story which might be true there is far more evidence than any Jewish Exodus.

Posted on Jul 19, 2012, 9:29:24 AM PDT
Myth is what modern man calls ancient mans reality.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 19, 2012, 11:24:17 AM PDT
John M. Lane says:
Myth is an interesting subject even in our own supposedly enlightened age. Look at all the myths surrounding 9/11, for example.

Indeed, the current political campaign is an exercise in applied mythology.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 19, 2012, 12:00:11 PM PDT
Useful Idiot says:
*Myth is an interesting subject even in our own supposedly enlightened age. Look at all the myths surrounding 9/11, for example.

Yep. Government secrecy will do that. And the Air Force was fueling Extra Terrestrial myths to protect their secret plane projects. Yes, these 9/11 myths did further and give a templet for a political point of view. The Kennedy consparicies because it was not accepted that he could be killed by a crazed commie. It makes perfect sence in JFKs hard line agains the soviets.

The point is where does misperception become a myth. Myth is nothing but a word which has all the meaning the user intends for it to have. We can't say the T-34 was a myth but it did have its myths.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 19, 2012, 12:06:22 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
Myth isn't based on evidence and it doesn't reconstruct what actually happened. The T-34 did, in fact, exist and it played an important role in World War II.

You're correct, the T-34 inspired a number of myths, but that doesn't mean that "Myth is nothing but a word...."

I live 14 miles from the Custer Battlefield in southeastern Montana. Myths and legends are an integral part of life here.

Posted on Jul 19, 2012, 12:24:53 PM PDT
Useful Idiot says:
*I live 14 miles from the Custer Battlefield in southeastern Montana. Myths and legends are an integral part of life here.

Yes, and they are important which is my point and how a myth differs from pure fiction or lies and fraud.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 19, 2012, 2:41:14 PM PDT
John M. Lane says:
Thanks for the clarification.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2012, 10:15:52 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 22, 2012, 10:19:04 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Joseph M. Creaney says:

[Myths are important and what distinguishes myth from fiction is a myth is believed.]

Perhaps but if a myth is believed but not true what is it ?

If you're talking about myths in relation to mythology those stories are based on a metaphysical, not a literal, reality. The mythological stories use allegories and metaphors to explain truths which can often not be easily explained in a literal way.

There's an interesting statement in the Edgar Cayce material where Cayce's students asked him to explain the psychic abilities of the Atlantean Hept-Supht:

"This would almost be impossible. To put such into words would be as impractical as it would be to describe what the multiple of colors as related to vibrations brings, reduced to the 11th or nth degree."

Hept-Supht is an interesting character in Cayce's Egyptian material. That name means "he that keeps the record, that keeps shut".

Hept-Supht was present at a ceremony with Ra Ta and Isis where the Hall Of Records was hermetically sealed and the apex was placed at the top of the Great Pyramid. This was a great day for the ancient Egyptians.

Quoting Cayce again:

"This was in the period as given of 10,500 years before the entering of the Prince of Peace in the land to study to become an initiate in or through those same activities that were set by Hept-Supht in this dedicating ceremony."

In that quote Cayce is referring to the time when Christ traveled to Egypt and experienced the initiation rites. He said Christ traveled to both India and Egypt with his cousin John The Baptist during the so called 'missing years' that weren't recorded in the bible.

Edgar Cayce was I believe the reincarnation of the Egyptian god Osiris.

Cayce said in one of his past lives he was a guy by the name of Lucias who wrote the Acts Of The Apostles in the bible. Lucias got into a disagreement with Paul about the marriage rules for deacons. Lucias and some of the apostles were married.

This is one example of how the gods helped capture the truth in the bible. Not only did they capture that truth, they themselves are a part of it.

We were talking about the Iliad story in that other discussion. When you read in that story about how Apollo for example takes the form of other people, the gods and goddesses use their powers to save people during the battles, etc., that is all true. Zeus and those others are very real.

Hesiod said that the Muses, daughters of Zeus who love song and banquets, sang the Theogony story to him. I'm not sure but I get the impression that the Muses also related the Iliad story to Homer.

People today sometimes view what the ancients like Plato believed as primitive superstition. They think for example that Plato saw the lightning flash in the sky and he didn't understand science so he made up stories about how Zeus was causing it.

That's dead wrong. There are reasons why people like Plato believed in the mythological gods and goddesses.

Plato's misunderstood and often contradicted Atlantis story which he heard from the Egyptians is also true. Atlantis is another very interesting subject and it was Cayce who identified the relationship between Atlantis and Egypt's mysterious legacy with the pyramids and other mysterious monuments.

People in the ancient past believed that the human race has been completely annihilated and had to start over again several times. The biblical flood, which occurs in many other mythologies besides the Book Of Genesis, was one of those catastrophes. But there have been others.

Jeff Marzano


Theogony (Focus Classical Library)

Egyptian Heritage: Based on the Edgar Cayce Readings

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2012, 10:21:54 PM PDT
John blows it again.Every time he opens his mouth other than to be snarky,he is generally so far off base with what he thinks he believes.Get back on the other boards where you are seen as literate.

Heinrich Schliemann (German pronunciation: [ˈʃliːman]; (January 6, 1822 - December 26, 1890) was a German businessman and amateur archaeologist, and an advocate of the historical reality of places mentioned in the works of Homer. Schliemann was an archaeological excavator of Troy, along with the Mycenaean sites Mycenae and Tiryns. His work lent weight to the idea that Homer's Iliad and Virgil's Aeneid reflect actual historical events.


In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2012, 10:46:21 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Joseph M. Creaney says:

[Star Wars and Lord of the Rings use power mythical devices but no one thinks those stories are true.]

Magic is another interesting subject.

The following books, if you believe it, contain accounts of past life memories that the authors experienced in very ancient Egypt:


Initiation in the Great Pyramid (Astara's library of mystical classics)

The subject of initiation comes up a lot in books about ancient legends and philosophy. The initiation rites were designed to allow people to reach high levels of spiritual enlightenment.

Some of the things the Egyptian initiation candidates learned about were magic, alchemy, sacred geometry, mythology, astrology, and their 'divisions of the self'.

In other words they learned about secrets of nature, the human body, and the universe as well as spiritual knowledge.

According to the above books and other sources some famous people who experienced the Egyptian initiation rites were Moses, Pythagoras, Plato, and Christ.

There was a clear class distinction between the pharaohs and priests in Egypt and the rest of society. The Egyptian priests were the keepers of ancient and secret knowledge that the gods brought to the Earth long ago.

There are theories that the Ark Of The Covenant of biblical fame was a radioactive device that was kept inside the pyramids until the Egyptian priests gave it to Moses. Moses was trained about how to control the Ark using his staff and this gave Moses the ability to control and manipulate the force of gravity and other forces of nature.

In later times the pharaohs became corrupted by this knowledge and power and they became the mortal enemies of both Abraham and Moses as the bible indicates. The bible alludes to some of this where Moses and Aaron have the confrontation with the pharaoh's no good magicians. The war between the pharaohs and Abraham and Moses was in some ways a secret war I guess in the sense that it involved secret knowledge.

The initiates were sworn to secrecy about what they learned because this type of knowledge becomes very dangerous in the wrong hands. Some people think the final destruction of Atlantis was caused by the misuse of the mystical arts for greed and material gain. But for the intervention of Zeus and the other gods the evil sorcerers on Atlantis may have destroyed the entire planet Earth and who knows what else. They unleashed cosmic forces that are probably not even understood today or at least are not in the public domain.

The following book is high on my list of all time interesting books about mysterious subjects:

Fulcanelli: Master Alchemist: Le Mystere des Cathedrales, Esoteric Intrepretation of the Hermetic Symbols of The Great Work

This Fulcanelli guy appears to have been a real alchemist. He left the material for that book with a student and then disappeared. The student claims he saw Fulcanelli 30 years later and he looked younger than when he disappeared.

Fulcanelli claims that he witnessed lead being transmuted into gold. The way he explained it sounds like the lead "died" and was resurrected as gold.

Those are some of the powers of the philosopher's stone material. It can restore and maintain eternal youth and perfect heath and transmute one element into another.

Jeff Marzano

Fingerprints of the Gods

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2012, 10:51:18 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Lawrence A. Dickerson says:

[His work lent weight to the idea that Homer's Iliad and Virgil's Aeneid reflect actual historical events.]

Yes especially because Schliemann found a magnificent hoard of gold buried in those ruins which he called Priam's gold after Hector's father King Priam.

This confirms the idea that those ruins really are the ruins of Troy since there was a lot of treasure kept there.

It sounds like Schliemann's gold ended up in Russia after World War II.

Jeff Marzano

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2012, 11:14:00 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
Joseph M. Creaney says:

[And the Air Force was fueling Extra Terrestrial myths to protect their secret plane projects.]

Don't underestimate the CIA and their disinformation powers.

You're correct that's exactly what they did say. They claim that they themselves wanted people to believe in flying saucers to deflect public knowledge of their real secret projects like the stealth airplanes.

But in reality I believe the subject of flying saucers was given a higher security classification than the hydrogen bomb project.

It is a well known, documented historical fact that after the Roswell incident the Army base at Roswell issued a press release stating they had recovered a crashed disk.

But almost immediately very strange things started happening. Phone calls were interrupted by people claiming to be FBI agents and warning people to drop off the line immediately. People where threatened and harassed. Some disappeared.

I guess it was around 1980 or so that the Majestic 12 documents were mysteriously delivered to a UFO researcher and studied in great detail by UFOlogist and hero Stanton Friedman. If Friedman says a government document is valid, it is. And he says the MJ 12 documents are legitimate.

Those documents indicate that president Truman set up a secret group to study the flying saucer phenomenon and at the same time create confusion and disinformation with the public.

The documents also provide procedures about how to secure a flying saucer crash site and how to transport the debris to secret locations, including any bodies of extra terrestrial entities.

"There's always things like that going on. Flying saucers and they've had other things you know." - Harry S. Truman

Jeff Marzano

The Men Who Killed Kennedy

Crash at Corona: The U.S. Military Retrieval and Cover-Up of a UFO

Top Secret/Majic: Operation Majestic-12 and the United States Government's UFO Cover-up

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 22, 2012, 11:37:54 PM PDT
Yog-Sothoth says:
JM: "Perhaps but if a myth is believed but not true what is it ?"

If its not true, it is a myth.
If it is true, it is history.

"Myth" = "false history".

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 23, 2012, 7:44:35 AM PDT
Useful Idiot says:
*Don't underestimate the CIA and their disinformation powers.

There are myths of the CIA, and they like it that way. Compensates for their medocire abilities as an intellegence agency.

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 23, 2012, 7:51:36 AM PDT
Useful Idiot says:
*If its not true, it is a myth.
*If it is true, it is history.

Myths might contain facutal information but the important part of myth is the values and culture which the myth teaches or conveyes. We can say that the medical benefits to bleeding are a myth which means false or harmful it can also be tied with supersutition but depending on the story myths and legends can be hard to seperate from fact.

We have to look at the mythical charastics of the Homer stories. The events might have some basis in fact but the lessons the story teachs is their relationship to their gods. No matter how great we think we are or no matter what we accomplish in life a twist of fate can take it all away. Our place next to the gods is small and we can be brushed aside by an uncouncious act by the gods or nature.

Posted on Jul 23, 2012, 8:43:08 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Jul 23, 2012, 8:44:04 AM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
The Iliad story not only talks about Zeus and the other immortals, but even Death, Strife, and a river were considered to be living entities.

I reached the part in the book where the human butcher Achilles finally decides to join the fight. King Agamemnon kills an animal and offers it as a sacrifice to Zeus and also the sun. Agamemnon prayed for success in the ensuing bloodbath.

Achilles took 12 Trojans as prisoners. He already announced that he is planning to slash their throats as a tribute to his fallen comrade and dear friend Patroclus.

The gods have informed Achilles that he himself doesn't have long to live. He will be struck down by the deadly immortal archer Apollo. A horse also spoke to Achilles and reminded him about this prophecy. I don't recall now which god or goddess caused the horse to start talking.

In the bible Moses caused a donkey to start talking to some guy. This was very unnerving.

If I could choose my method of death burning or having my throat slashed are very low on the list.

Jeff Marzano

Posted on Jul 24, 2012, 3:28:15 PM PDT
MLC says:
The Bible is not a book of mythology. It's a historical record of real people, real places, real events. Archaeology has backed it up time and time again. Digs have unearthed the towns named in it and given us records of the people and events mentioned in it. Therefore, it cannot be dismissed as mythology like the Iliad or stories about Osiris, etc.

Just saying . . . .

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 24, 2012, 8:13:10 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
MLC says:

[Therefore, it cannot be dismissed as mythology like the Iliad or stories about Osiris, etc.]

Mythology is the common thread between all of the world's religions, even the evil ones like Satanism.

Demons spoke to me last October for about 4 days straight due to things I had said in anger back in the 1990s. The impression and understanding I got from that experience is that the author of The Satanic Bible, Anton Levey, was the mythological Prometheus in human form. Prometheus is associated with the black arts by some authors.

The mythological gods and goddesses ensured that the truth was captured in the bible. And they lived out that truth in their own lives in this physical world.

But something like the Book Of Genesis cannot be read literally. For example Genesis states that God created the universe in 7 days. This means something but it's not 7 of our days.

Although strangely Edgar Cayce added:

"Not that this would have been impossible."

The bible mainly captures the experiences of two groups of people; the Hebrews in the Old Testament and the Christians in the New Testament.

Other books such as the Egyptian myths talk about the experiences of other groups of people and their experiences with God.

The Egyptian god Thoth, the architect of the Great Pyramid, may have been Christ in another form. Thoth was the great teacher of mathematics and other more esoteric subjects.

The Egyptian god Horus, renamed to Apollo by the Greeks, flies around in a flaming chariot as does the prophet Elijah. They may be the same person I don't know. But this would not be impossible.

Elijah was (if you believe it) reincarnated as Christ's cousin John The Baptist.

Jeff Marzano

Zeus: A Journey Through Greece in the Footsteps of a God

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2012, 3:27:59 PM PDT
The NOVA broadcast "The Bible's Buried Secrets" can be viewed at:


The archeological evidence indicates that the Canaanite cities fell because of internal collapse, and not because of an external "Israelite" conquest.

I was particularly fascinated by the following two items:

From http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bible/dever.html

<<Dever: Some liberation theologians and some archeologists have argued that early Israel was a kind of revolutionary social movement. These were people rebelling against their corrupt Canaanite overlords. In my recent book on early Israel I characterize the Israelite movement as an agrarian social reform. These are pioneers in the hill country who are fleeing the urban centers, the old Canaanite cities, which are in a process of collapse. And in particular they are throwing off the yoke of their Canaanite and Egyptian overlords. They are declaring independence.

Now, why these people were willing to take such a risk, colonizing the hill country frontier, is very difficult to know. I think there were social and economic compulsions, but I would be the first to say I think it was probably also a new religious vision.>>

From: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bible/apsell.html

<<There's another twist in this view of the Exodus that may surprise people. Many biblical scholars now think that it wasn't Israelite slaves but rather Canaanite slaves who escaped from Egypt. As these former slaves made their way back to Canaan, they stopped in a place the Bible calls Midian, where they underwent some type of religious transformation, adopting a god perhaps known as Yahu.

In our film, through dramatic reenactments, we show these former slaves returning to Canaan, where they tell their story of liberation, and of a redeeming God, to the people they find there, the ancient Israelites. Many biblical scholars think this was a critical juncture in the formation of the identity of the ancient Israelites and their belief in Yahweh, who became their one God. And it's one of the key moments in our film.>>

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2012, 4:06:37 PM PDT
Domenico:You are correct but natural occurrences such as earthquakes and volcanic eruptions also played a part in the destruction of the cities mentioned in the bible.There is still only one piece of archeological evidence that demonstrates that King David may have been an actual person.There is not one shred of evidence of Moses and his entourage and in fact the stories follow others of a more ancient civilization..

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 26, 2012, 4:11:20 PM PDT

So all novels set in NYC that mention a few real people are actually histories?

In reply to an earlier post on Jul 27, 2012, 10:40:14 AM PDT
Useful Idiot says:
*The archeological evidence indicates that the Canaanite cities fell because of internal collapse, and not because of an external "Israelite" conquest.

Intersting information. I think that the Exodus story has less evidence that the great flood. I wonder where the story came from and what influenced its creation. Canaan was for a long time under the control of Egypt and there are limits to how early Exodus could have happened. It makes no sense to escape from a country to one of the areas they control. The story might be legends pieced together from the Kykosos occupation. An escapte looks much better than an expultion.

What is known is that Hebrew and Phonecian are closly related language much like Spanish and Italian. I think it much more likley that the Jewish religion memrged from the local culutre. El from El Hoim went from a god to the main god to the only god.

Who knows, Later writers could have been influenced by Platonic or Zorastrian ideas and since there was no doccumentation going back to Israel after their time in Babylon writing about the rightous old days when everyone worshiped one god.

Posted on Aug 2, 2012, 12:17:10 AM PDT
1874Sharps says:
Joseph M. Creaney,
I too have always been fascinated by the story of Exodus.
Through my own struggle with Multiple Sclerosis and Depression I have often feared there would never be a place of safety and belonging for me. Many of us who have battled serious illness have experienced a sense of our belonging seeming conditional on our performance. We feel as if we are valued for not making trouble, and if we amputate our hearts and feelings, we minimize our undesirability and make ourselves harmless. Only then can we take up space. 
We learn to guess, try to figure out our place, to earn it somehow, but we never really feel we've found it. It seems as though we could be exiled at any moment. So we learn to grab whatever is offered, thankful for being allowed to stay somewhere, anywhere. This is how we define belonging: the temporary postponement of certain exile.
Some of us try to earn our place by being the clown or the savior or just invisible. We clutter our lives with these strategies for belonging, trying through some combination of performance and cleverness to make ourselves look attractive and valuable so those who "really" belong will let us stay around.  Some of us take what seems to be the only other choice: self-imposed exile. With a good hiding place, we can simply disappear in secret, avoiding the problem altogether. Some of us hide out in our rooms, others in books, some with their pets, others retreat into television or computer games. Some choose to hide in their bodies.
When we are hiding out, waiting sometimes takes the place of belonging: waiting to be discovered, waiting to be asked in, waiting for it to be safe. Waiting and hiding are strategies of powerlessness and is an essential ingrediant for why so many of us are lonely.
Our history as a species is filled with conflicts between people seeking a rightful place.  Indians with Europeans, blacks with apartheid, Jews with Nazis and Muslums, women with men, rich with poor. We have been terribly clumsy in allocating a place of safety, and we all seek refuge, a home. Even Jesus was born a refugee, homeless among his own people. But safety and belonging are not freely granted by the world. Millions of homeless people in our cities testify to the enduring truth of Jesus' experience. Millions of refugees worldwide reveal our inability or perhaps our unwillingness to provide a homeland for all our children.
Any child in pain claims kinship with all others who live in exile from true belonging. For those of us with mental illness/brain disorders who have felt emotional exile and isolation in our lives, this kinship is difficult to feel, hard to imagine. But it lies at the heart of our Journey.
When we doubt our belonging, we grow desperate, and we learn to grab almost anything-a job, a sexual partner, a gang, a therapist, a lifestyle-and make that our place of belonging. In our desperation, we lose both our serenity and our sensitivity to the needs of others.  Yet no other human being can provide that belonging for us. They are not in charge of granting us a place here. Our place is already given. Our challenge, our work, is to honor our place in this moment, to breathe in deeply the unconditional gift of home.
The search for a home is an ancient spiritual metaphor. In the Hebrew story of Exodus, God saw the suffering of the Hebrew slaves and promised them an unconditional "land of milk and honey." No matter how unfaithful or sacrilegious they proved to be along the way, no matter how much they complained about the difficulty of the journey, the gift of belonging was delayed but never taken away. They were not given the land as a reward for their performance; they were given the land because they required a home.
The invitation to belong is made again and again, but we must be able to hear the promise and accept the gift. The journey to our home need not always lead to a separate country or place. Sometimes it leads us to a still, small voice within our souls, a place of belonging as sure and quiet as our very breath. This search for home is essential to our healing because having a place where they let us stay isn't the same as having a place where we belong.

Posted on Aug 2, 2012, 1:35:14 PM PDT
Jeff Marzano says:
The Exodus story in the bible is absolutely true.

I have however heard some interesting theories about possible discrepancies between the bible and what really happened.

The bible states that Moses killed the Egyptian guy because he had seen the Egyptian beating up a Hebrew slave. But Edgar Cayce stated that the Egyptian had sexually attacked Moses' sister. Not that everyone believes in Edgar Cayce but this was a very strange and specific thing to say if it isn't true.

Cayce said Moses is a symbol of meekness and that matches up with the bible. But Moses was also a killer.

I don't think the so called burning bush was a tree that talked to Moses. I think what the bible is saying there is Moses encountered something very mysterious in the forest which was a manifestation of God's presence.

The story of the golden calf doesn't make much sense when read literally. Some people associate this story with magic and alchemy. Moses ground the golden statue into a powder, mixed the powder with water, and told the Hebrews to drink it. That powdered gold may have been the philosopher's stone material.

These are cases where the bible writers may not have known or understood exactly what happened. Or they may have chosen to omit those details for various reasons.

But Edgar Cayce and Elisabeth Haich provide some corroboration with the bible about Moses. Also in the New Testament Christ spoke about Abraham and Moses so that's further confirmation for Christians.

For me some of Cayce's best material is about the bible and Christianity.

Jeff Marzano

Edgar Cayce's Story of the Old Testament From the Birth of Souls to the Death of Moses

Edgar Cayce's Story of Jesus

Edgar Cayce on the Revelation: A Study Guide for Spiritualizing Body and Mind

Posted on Aug 3, 2012, 9:18:51 AM PDT
Useful Idiot says:
*The Exodus story in the bible is absolutely true.

I don't know. It may be as true as the Iliad. There is little evidence for such events. There was escape then the conquest. Many of the stories we have in the bible have older Sumerian roots and roots in other cultures. The Jews took those stories and then crafted them with their own moral messages.
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