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Customer Discussions > History forum

conflict in the middle east since 1948

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Showing 26-50 of 52 posts in this discussion
Posted on Apr 9, 2012, 10:34:24 AM PDT
This thread does not relate to its title at all. The first post doesn't either. What exactly is the point here?

Posted on Apr 9, 2012, 10:37:51 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 9, 2012, 10:38:43 AM PDT
Susanna says:
The point is to have another excuse for antisemitic trolls to insult Israel.

They are regulars on the history forum, and they are addicted and must have several veins, I mean threads, running at the same time.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 9, 2012, 10:37:52 AM PDT
Rachel, Rachel, Rachel
You consider yourself an Israeli even though you do not live there. Was that your birthplace?

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 9, 2012, 11:19:30 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 9, 2012, 12:54:33 PM PDT
Diva says:
Same is true about Mexicans living in the US. They considers themselves Mexicans and zealously guard their "nationality".

I am also an Israeli living in the US. Does that mean I have to go back to Israel or renounce Israel in order to make some people happy and prove my loyalty to USA??

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 10, 2012, 4:24:44 PM PDT
patrick says:
I dont know about its anti-semitism, sometimes that comes in, the know-all know nothing Western socialist liberal, the Rachel Corey stereotype, is not necessarily motivated by anti-jewish simple racism, I dont think..the real drivers might be fairly simple, but not quite that simple...other may find true crude anti-semitism in that stew always, Im not completely convinced.
when you do automatically come back with 'anti-semite", you are in some danger of aping those who stupidly cry 'Xenophobe" when you oppose..... Islamisation of western countries, for example.

Id also personally be happier if Jewish people began referring to people who dislike Jewish people as 'racists", same as people who dislike negroes or Chinese/Korean/Japanese/Vietnamese people might be labelled.
Im not sure that at this stage, they should be continually claiming their own specialised brand.
I could say more on this, but I wont, this time, for now.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 11, 2012, 5:28:50 AM PDT
anne says:
patrick: <Id also personally be happier if Jewish people began referring to people who dislike Jewish people as 'racists'>

anne: I'd like to see people who dislike others because of their gender as 'genderists'.

Posted on Apr 16, 2012, 1:57:25 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 16, 2012, 9:46:28 PM PDT
Aluf B. says:

muliebrity: the state of being a woman. The qualities or characteristics of being a woman.
misogyny: Hatred of women.
misology: hatred of reason and enlightenment. That is one of anne's characteristics.

Antisemitism: A word Invented by Wilhelm Marr. It is, indeed, a misnomer since there are no "Semites" just languages that are Semitic, yes they include Arabic and Hebrew, but that is as far as it goes.
annetisemitism= The hatred that anne has for Jews,denying the truth of the Bible, the existence of Israel as a State, or the Jewish religion.
Judeophobia= a better label for those who hate and fear Jews. I do think that hatred and fear go together sometimes unrecognized as a double.

Anne is mulish about all the topic that have to do with Jews.
Genderist is risible, that word does not exist at all.

Racism NO , Jews are not a race, therefore this is also a misplaced label. There are Jews of all ethnic backgrounds.

Xenophobe= a person who is afraid and gloats about being better than the other. Fear of the other. That could also be an acceptable word.

I hope you had a nice Easter.


In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 3:52:28 PM PDT
OldAmazonian says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 4:16:36 PM PDT
patrick says:
Oh for Christs sake as if theyre going to partition an official Jewish quarter in Britain an old European state...and what? Every other major Eur country then follows suit for its Jews?
And then what? The Ashkenazi or Sephardim wtf theyre called, the large number actually resident in Palestine, born there in fact, what, they move to this Ghetto in the UK?
They were given a land on the lands of their historical ethnic origin...
Its that stupid a suggestion that it cannot even be other than TIC..its sly and disengenuous , like the one about giving them part of black Africa such as Uganda was.
You DO think that they should be stateless, thats why you would pretend to offer a joke-gesture state "part of Britain".
Britain had a mandate in Palestine , to resolve issues and found some kind of political entity I recall, it was a UN-approved move to found two states there one Arab, one Jew, along the lines perhaps of the India/Pakistan partition.
You must be one of these who imagines that the creation of one more Jordan, Lebanon or Syria there in its place somehow led to a progressive stable region.
Each time it changed hands over the centuries it changed hands by force anyway, but there is that mythology that 1948 began that trend.
They were perfectly content to throttle it at birth, and everyone in it.
When you choose to fight over consensus , and lose,then of course you lose something.You cant demand all your stake back from your bookie because the fight and bet didnt turn out how you planned.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 4:19:55 PM PDT
patrick says:
yes, well, its not as if male chauvinists actually dislike sex, is it..

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 4:25:25 PM PDT
patrick says:
Me "Id also personally be happier if Jewish people began referring to people who dislike Jewish people as 'racists",

actually I should probably have put "people --alleged-- to dislike Jewish people"...because not all such allegations are founded , justified let alone proved.
the Marlon Brando tirade years ago when he showcased various ethnic epithets and then made a point about the Jewish k-epithet, was a good example.
Anybody could read his context, it was a perfectly simple and plain point, and one he had a right to suggest, even if others wanted to debate was a fairly well crafted and qualified statement....
but merely for mentioning --the word-- in ANY context, he's accused of, you guessed it, Anti-semitism.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 6:16:04 PM PDT
Aluf B. says:
Old Moron as moron goes!


In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 6:20:44 PM PDT
Aluf B. says:
I am unaware of the Marlon Brando incident of years ago. What is it that he suggested?
Honestly I am unaware of this, probably before my time in the USA.
I am sure you would not want to recount the whole thing here, but I trust you to give me source so I can look it u p myself, a judge the merit of this "qualified statement."

you guessed it antisemitism in lower case dear. No people are Semites, it is just, to remark again, that it refers to languages.


Posted on Apr 17, 2012, 6:40:39 PM PDT
[Deleted by Amazon on Apr 17, 2012, 8:33:16 PM PDT]

Posted on Apr 17, 2012, 6:47:48 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 17, 2012, 6:48:21 PM PDT
patrick says:
ok, here we go, the actual quote...the Italians and/or latinos got a mention,as they would, I should have remembered them..
¡Hollywood is run by Jews. It is owned by Jews, and they should have a greater sensitivity. They should have greater sensitivity about the issue of people who are suffering because they've [been] exploited. We have seen the **gger, we've seen the greaseball, we have seen the chink, the slit-eyed dangerous Jap. We have seen the wily Filipino. We've seen everything, but we never saw the ki**, because they know perfectly well that is where you draw the wagons around.
-Marlon Brando

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 7:00:47 PM PDT
[Deleted by the author on Apr 17, 2012, 7:01:44 PM PDT]

Posted on Apr 17, 2012, 7:13:07 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 17, 2012, 10:19:28 PM PDT
Aluf B. says:
Thank you Patrick for answering me and then quoting again. I don't know what I moved that my post was deleted in the middle of my writing it. Anyway here is it again.

The incident went out of my radar. I was not aware of this at all even when I was here for a long time,early 90s? Then I was sick, sick with Lyme Disease. It might be then is it?

There was no need to make that remark, but to say that Jews should not depict others if they don't want to be depicted the same way. Probably the brouhaha was because of the word itself. Remember that those Jewish magnates were Germans, I am not defending them, the fact is that Jews and People of color- any color, were not accepted in the USA as bona fide American citizens. Why add to this with a Jewish stereotype. It was probably self defense.

Also Marlon Brando, ended up not accepting the Oscar he was given? Why? I assume he had many arguments as an actor there- and this outburst must be part of those arguments with those Jewish magnates. Was he not able to do a movie that he wanted?
I am not sure........

Finally, Jews were for the most part a very quiet community in the USA, I would guess until after 1967. Yea, the Arab Israeli conflict has exacerbated this argument. Why did he dare to use these epithets. Did the other communities protested in the same way as Jews about those respective epithets? I don't know the answer. Do you?

The USA is in itself a very complicated world. Fascinating in its multiculturalism in comparison to the homogeneity of most other places, that brings stress too.

I do respect your posts because with you I can have a true dialogue and no nonsense conversations. Thank you patrick.

Do you have answers?


In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 10:05:01 PM PDT
patrick says:
yes,Id forgotten about the Oscars, obviously Brando, in the last years of his life and no doubt rich beyond it mattering, became political. But yes, it makes two points, already mentioned, that in his opinion,hollywood is prepared to negatively stereotype every minority except the Jews who he obviously feels is running the show, writing the scripts, and financing the projects..
and that, in his opinion, as a minority which has taken some knocks quite is then insensitive to other minorities which have taken theirs..
yes, much of the brouhaha was supposedly based merely on his use of a word...without any acknowledgement of clear context..but of course in reacting that way, they underscored his own point.." you never see the ki**" he says...and merely mentioning the word however used, brings down a storm on him.
I dont know whether his original point , or the second one, is true anyway, or, if it was, perhaps what he was saying had become out of seems to me that Hollywood has portrayed the suffering of minorities other than Jews, in my seems to me I can think of examples.
And Spielberg makes Schindler's List, by the numbers Holocaust story except showing non-Jews saving Jews..
, but then he makes Munich...which it seemed to me neither glamorised the vengeful Israelis,or their deeds, nor villified the people they were hunting.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 10:17:06 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 17, 2012, 10:20:38 PM PDT
Aluf B. says:

I have not see Munich. is it worth it?
Also my query: did other minorities protested Brando's use of epithets depicting them? That would be interesting to know.


In reply to an earlier post on Apr 17, 2012, 10:32:27 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 19, 2012, 11:09:16 AM PDT
patrick says:
yes, it would, i dont know if the other minorities mentioned arced-up as well...see, it would be weird if they did, since in a way, it was them he was standing up for..sort of.

Munich? oh, its ok, no life-changing experience, there is one of the most confronting and bizarre dying scenes portrayed where they catch up with a beautiful Dutch seductress/hitwoman who has earlier taken out one of their team.
But you see, imo it is really just a remake of an older lower-budget much less famous film...called "sword of Gideon"...starring Michael York in what looks to me like the Eric Bana same character.. it is the same subject matter, presented in a similiarly sobering way.

Posted on Apr 17, 2012, 10:45:15 PM PDT
Aluf B. says:

Sorry, but the word arced is not in the dictionary. Does it mean to stand up, or rebel?

Good Night dear, it is here 1 AM.

Your reply to Aluf B.'s post:
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Posted on Apr 19, 2012, 11:10:25 AM PDT
patrick says: become agitated ,protest or remonstrate

Posted on May 20, 2012, 3:36:03 PM PDT
Rachel says:
Since 1948? Ha! Conflict? In the Middle East? Why since the world began, almost you could say. Just read your history books, folks.

In reply to an earlier post on May 21, 2012, 7:12:12 AM PDT
anne says:
Rachel Cherry,
We all know there has been conflict in the Middle East before 1948, but I'd like this conversation to be limited to no farther back than 1948.

Posted on Jul 31, 2012, 5:14:43 AM PDT
anne says:
Well, this is interesting. In the July 27 edition of the New York Times, I find a correction. It says <An article on Tuesday about the Israeli government's seeking to demolish eight Palestinian hamlets in the South Hebron Hills, part of what is known as Area C, which is under full Israeli control, misstated the number of Palestinians living in the area. The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics puts the number at 117,000; the Israeli government estimates 92,000, and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs says 150,000. There are not 50,000 Palestinians living in Area C, a figure provided by an advocate for the Palestinian settlers. >

Four days before, they printed <JERUSALEM - The Israeli government has asked its Supreme Court to allow the demolition of eight Palestinian hamlets in the South Hebron Hills so the area can be used for military training. The request, filed Sunday by Israel's Defense Ministry, is part of a struggle lasting decades between Israel and the tiny hamlets of cave-dwelling shepherds, who were returned to their homes by court order after an earlier forced evacuation by the state.

Advocates for the Palestinians contend that it is part of a broader government effort to reduce the number of Palestinians living in parts of the West Bank known as Area C, which is under Israeli control, and prevent them from building new homes or businesses there.

"It was never a declared Israeli policy to take over Area C, it was a policy that was taking hold on the ground," said Shlomo Lecker, a lawyer who, along with the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, represents about 200 families in the area. "It's in many ways retreating from any agreements with the Palestinians, with the U.S., any kind of arrangement of two states. Where will be the two states if Israel will take over?"

Mark Regev, a spokesman for the prime minister's office, rejected that analysis. "I deny totally that there's any effort to get Palestinians out of Area C," he said. "There's no such policy goal." Mr. Regev pointed out that under the 1993 Oslo Accords, "there are signed agreements that we have full jurisdiction over Area C" until some future final status is determined through further negotiation.

Area C, covering 61 percent of the West Bank, is home to about 350,000 Jewish settlers. The number of Palestinian settlers varies. The Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics puts the number at 117,000; the Israeli government estimates there are 92,000, and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs says there are 150,000. Some right-wing politicians have recently called for Israel to assert legal sovereignty over the territory, a unilateral step that would essentially define the contours of a future Palestinian state - and that is anathema not only to the Palestinian leadership but also to the United States and Europe.

The case at hand involves about 7,500 acres near the Palestinian town of Yatta, and about 1,800 people who live at least part time in a dozen communities that predate Israel's 1967 seizure of the West Bank from Jordan, and in some cases have been around since the 1800s. Israel refers to the area as Firing Zone 918, a so-called closed military zone, and has tried for decades to clear the area for live-fire exercises.

In 1999, government forces evicted about 700 residents and demolished some of their buildings and wells. After the families sued in 2000, the Supreme Court granted an injunction that allowed them to return until the case was resolved. The sides engaged in mediation for several years but reached an impasse in 2005.

Now, the Defense Ministry has asked the court to remove about 1,500 people from 8 of the 12 villages, and relocate them to Yatta, a city of 50,000 in Area B under the Oslo Accords - about 21 percent of the West Bank, where the Palestinian Authority runs civilian operations but shares security duties with Israel.

Many of the Area C families live part time in Area B and send their children to school there. They would be allowed to graze their sheep and cultivate their land on weekends and Jewish holidays, when the military does not train, and during two other months of the year. Four villages in the northern part of the area, with about 300 residents, would be allowed to stay.

In court papers, the Israeli administration contends that in recent years there has been an influx of residents, a rash of construction, and support activity by international organizations in the part of Area C in question, "violating the status quo, violating the ground closing order, and violating the building and planning laws."

The filing states: "Starting from 2009, an increasing trend of augmenting and strengthening the population on the C Grounds is taking place. There are increasing events of infiltration into the closed fire zones, and the number of such infiltrators grows regularly, and so does the quality and quantity of their housing on these grounds."

After a period for lawyers for the families to respond, a hearing will be scheduled. "It's not like tomorrow bulldozers are going to come," acknowledged Tamar Feldman, a lawyer for the civil rights group. But Ms. Feldman and others said the government's request was just the latest in a series of steps in the West Bank that could threaten a future Palestinian state.

In June, under court order to remove 30 families from a Jewish settlement apparently built on private Palestinian land, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu promised to build 800 new settler houses elsewhere. Earlier this month, a state-appointed panel of jurists issued a report urging the legalization of scores of unauthorized settlement outposts, flouting international opinion by saying Israel's presence in the West Bank is not an occupation.

And just last week, the authorities elevated a college in the West Bank town of Ariel to university status. "There are indications that there is a general policy being drafted or formulated," said Ms. Feldman, the lawyer.

Gabby Sobelman contributed reporting.>

The Chicago Tribune printed on July 27 <Jewish population hits new high in West Bank--The number of Jewish settlers in the West Bank has crossed the 350,000 mark for the first time, and most of the growth--about 4.5 percent annually--is coming outside the major settlement blocs in areas that aren't expected to become part of Israel under a two-state solution, according to a report Thursday in the conservative-leaning newspaper Israel Hayom. The figures do not include the nearly 300,000 Jewish residents who have moved into East Jerusalem and large developments around Jerusalem.>

Oh, Israel, you make me lol.
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Discussion in:  History forum
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Initial post:  Apr 4, 2012
Latest post:  Aug 9, 2012

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