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Geert Wilders on trial for fighting the Islamization of Europe

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Showing 126-150 of 177 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Oct 23, 2010, 9:27:30 PM PDT
Domenico says:
You. You are kind of crazy.

What on earth makes you think the ideology of islam can be ...tamed? Modernized ? When did you see islam changing its laws and treating every human equally? Look around ! Look back !

Don't you understand that islam is a HUGE problem separate and in ADDITION to ...'''the world powers...manipulating all the players''' ?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 23, 2010, 10:07:16 PM PDT
TN says:
Suncatcher <<I DO believe that muslims have rights, and that every body on this planet has rights.>>

Noble belief. However the Quran says that you, Suncatcher, as an infidel, has no right, and Muslims are to dominate you (as well as all other infidels) and you will be a dhimmi in their society.

Now It's quite possible you're not familiar with the concept of dhimmitude. You can browse these threads and learn a couple of things about it, or do some research on your own, before posting something more sensible.

Posted on Oct 23, 2010, 10:43:06 PM PDT
Domenico says: politician's faces new trial after judges dismissedFrom Per Nyberg, CNNOctober 23, 2010 1:49 p.m. EDT

(CNN) -- The trial of a right-wing Dutch politician was temporarily canceled after three judges were dismissed for possible bias, a court official said.

Geert Wilders, who had been on trial for inciting hatred against Muslims, now faces a new proceeding.

"We now have to start the trial all over again. We don't know how long it will take but we have to plan for a whole new trial and find new judges which could take several months," Mercedes Grootscholten, spokeswoman for the Amsterdam district court, told CNN.

Wilders' defense attorney requested the cancellation when he was denied the opportunity to question an expert witness on the Arab world. In the Netherlands, the defense can request dismissals on the grounds of bias.

A review panel granted his request on Friday.

Wilders is on trial for inciting discrimination and hatred over a controversial film he made about Islam.

Wilders' film "Fitna," which he released online in March 2008 to international outcry, features disturbing images of terrorist acts superimposed over verses from the Quran in an apparent attempt to paint Islam as a threat to Western society.

It drew complaints from the European Union and the Organization of the Islamic Conference, as well as concern from the United States.

Wilders has said he has done nothing wrong.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 25, 2010, 9:11:45 AM PDT
Winoceros. Yes, he did. There were a bunch of pictures taken before, during and after it happened. She talked to the driver before hand and then went and stood up on a high point in front and looked him eye to eye, and he revved it anyway. He claims he didn't see her as his excuse. She was doing one of those "block the path" protest things over there. In her case, they called her card. Israel only reprimanded the guy from what I heard. My spouse is an ardent Israel supporter and said this was just so wrong. There is so much hate going on. Truly sad. The thing is, she also had some kind of premonition about it from what others were saying in her conversations to back home friends before the day of the event.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 25, 2010, 9:30:13 AM PDT
TN, I know about the dhimmi stuff.

Everyone, I think we can all agree that there is a 'problem' in Islam. Even Islam is starting to recognize this, but due to inner peer pressure from the larger (usually those that didn't grow up in western society) majority, are having a hard time of it. The way I see it is that you have either militant or hardliner imams posted to western positions. This is the whole problem! It is the ones holding the reins! Muslims are indoctrinated to always kow-tow to the religious leader.

All I have to say is, be thankful it is happening like this. Because, if they had sent over all nice imams from the start to now, nobody would have thought twice and it would have exploded later after much more integration into our society.

Oh my, my spouse just dug up the pictures on the Israeli bulldozer thing. So gross. And it showed she had a bullhorn too talking to the bulldozer guy when she was in front, and it was very obvious he could see her, and she was wearing a bright red jacket you could not miss. What a waste of life.

Ok, back to subject. TN, there was a period in history where the dhimmi think worked perfectly well, though they did take advantage by overtaxing non-muslims, and every one got on as well as any country can. And this was not Spain and earlier in time I believe. Don't remember who upset that applecart, but you can bet it was another militant or fundamentalist.

You see TN, radical/militant/fundamentalists are the danger in ANY religion. Somehow they are the loudest sqeaky wheel and they always manage to get in control of the helm and gum up the works for everyone. That is what is happening from my viewpoint. Just like Cortez and the Incas. Conquering for Jesus courtesy of the Jesuits that go round.

Maybe this is karma. Getting a does back of our own medicine..... not saying I agree, just mentioning it.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 25, 2010, 10:00:50 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 25, 2010, 10:03:49 AM PDT
Maybe I am Domenico. And I agree that Isam has a very big problem and the people themselves are starting to question it within their own groups. But it is usually only within those groups either in the west or exposed to modern culture. So "their" internal issues will take several decades to work out within Islam. However, that doesn't help the goings on now.

Someone posted somewhere here an article stating that the Imams were being paid by Turkey to come here. That is a very big clue right there. Power and control "from the old country". I guess muslims will have to do something silimar to what the US and England did -- break off and become a separate sect or declare freedom or something so we can all live in peace as the ones here like the freedom of speech and dress and moving around in society for the women, etc.

In truth Domenico, Islam is a wonderful religion...if it was followed right according to how it was set up. I personally believe it is the hadith and sunnah stuff that has them all hobbled. And that is where the sharia stuff comes into play, all tied up with the hadith and sunnah. They did it to themselves. If they had just stuck with the Quran alone, it probably would have ended up somewhat like Christianity today. And the verses everyone qualms about? I don't think really mean spiritually what they have translated out to. Yeah, yeah, I know all what you are thinking. But really, like I say, their hadith and sunnah stuff has messed them up big time and they have such a big time and 'worship' value put into it, that I don't think they can let go, and it will be to their detriment.

The very, very big problem will be....if the sunni and shia ever unite. That will be it for the rest of the world. They will enforce their ways then, no doubt about it. And it will be the ugliest of ugly. And you know what? All the crap that we have ever done in their countries (Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Israel, Kuwait, Lybia, Lebanon) all that crap will come right back home to roost. Then, we really will loose our freedoms big time. But one also needs to look at our current picture and the freedoms we are also loosing now so that yet a different group can get in control of our countries and keep control. That is very ugly too. I read somewhere where almost all the families that have been in power in the US have been related. That is scary - a dictatorship with changing ingenious. Fool the people once shame on you. Fool the people twice shame on me. And the "me's" in the US haven't been doing so good in the last 10 yrs or so.

So right now, we 'think' we have rights here in the US, but in legal technicality, many have been quietly done away with. With Islam, you know up in your face what you do and don't have.

It is also a great religion for mysoginists (women haters). It makes a great 'boys club'. But the women have nothing. And that is the fault of the hadith/sunnah and their sharia. I think women should have their own religion and then the two religions can go to war and kill each other off and leave the planet to the animals. It seems animals have more sense than we do as time goes on....

Posted on Oct 25, 2010, 12:43:10 PM PDT
Domenico says:

What follows is a comment to the above article:

Ibn al Rassooli -------------------------------------
This is ALMOST a good article.... It starts off well, giving a generally unbiased and factual account of the latest twists in this silly saga (the "blasphemy" trial of an elected and extremely popular politician in a secular western democracy during the 21st century).

The article takes an unfortunate turn the moment it states that "prosecuting Mr. Wilders has backfired in every way imaginable, not least politically". Actually it's only backfired (and rightly so) for those "Politically Correct" people who apparently know nothing about either Islam or logic. Presumably therefore the un-named author(s) of this piece are in the same category?

Anybody who cares about Western freedom whilst also properly understanding Islam (along with its motives and "modus operandi") will actually be THRILLED (and relieved) not disappointed, that Geert Wilders has so easily run rings around those who would (if they could) discredit and silence him, and possible hand him over to the violent thugs he is so bravely warning us about!

All well meaning "Liberal-" (or "Social-") minded people seem to consider it their duty, come what may, to defend those whom they believe to be weak, disadvantaged "minorities". In fact they champion such people and can't do (or give) enough to them.

That's fine in theory but proves disastrous when not only do these people simply take (but give nothing whatsoever in return) but these so called "weak minorities" are actually extremely tough predatory people determinedly doing all they can to manipulate, confuse and exploit the situation to their own advantage. They are openly asserting (in speeches, pamphlets, lectures, broadcasts, during "sermons" and elsewhere) that they intend to bring down the very fabric of the system (in this case Western civilization) in order to replace it with something rather ancient, unyielding and demonstrably violent called "Islam" (meaning "Submission"). This is something I can talk about with confidence having been born in Iraq and brought up with Islam (which I have made it my duty to study in Arabic - my native language - and discuss as widely as possible in order to share my findings and knowledge).

In scientific (specifically biological) terminology what's happening is an attempted parasitic invasion (by a camouflaged pathogen aiming to appear harmless) in which the host's immune-defence systems are being confused and subtly by-passed as part of the attack.

By an extreme irony and twist of fate it is the majority, not the minority, which in this case is weak and urgently needs defending!

Many (but obviously not all) of the people Wilders warns us about are committing (or openly planning to commit) serious crimes (including, once they are ready and feel sufficiently "comfortable", causing civil insurrection on an ever escalating scale with the long-term intention of bringing down and replacing the system of government in the "host" country) and yet there is an attempt to prevent the majority from learning about this, and they are forbidden from questioning (or even thinking about) it if they do manage to find out. The debate is being intentionally stifled so as not to `offend' the perpetrators of crimes!

Geert Wilders' case (which thankfully has so far only resulted in farce) is by no means the only high-profile "blasphemy trial" currently being attempted in Europe. Consider the equally absurd trial of Ms. Sabaditsch-Wolff in Austria - a woman who (like me) has spent much time in the Middle East, has seen first hand what happens there and is not only deeply concerned that this totalitarian system - Islam - should not be allowed to enter or be imposed upon the West but has been brave enough to say so with substantial evidence to support those concerns (note that, again as with Wilders, it's the risk of publicizing truth about Islam that is triggering these "show-trials" designed to silence and intimidate "whistle-blowers").

This article's concluding paragraph makes the outrageous claim that "a retrial will achieve nothing but exacerbate these tensions". Actually those "tensions" are caused not by brave Mr. Wilders cleverly running rings round an establishment that is clearly out to try and get him, but by the ugly, sinister and very predatory nature of Islam that is now sweeping through many parts of the world, by people's direct reaction to what they are now experiencing in many parts of Europe, and most of all by the attempted stifling of debate or dissent from any of these events.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 25, 2010, 12:52:06 PM PDT
Domenico says:
The guy who wrote the comment above is technically a muslim. You and I hope to see many like him, don't we. But before that happens a lot of water must go down the river...

Quran is an ambiguous book. No sense in it. No beginning and no end. No continuity. The dream of a warlord.
What do you see "beautiful" ? Rituals? Those are "beautiful" in all religions.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 26, 2010, 9:50:52 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 26, 2010, 9:51:34 AM PDT
Sigh, yes, a LOT of water. But he is right. That is what I meant when the eastern countries are sending 'certain imams' to lead the people. They have to follow if they are muslims or be ostracized by their own people, which they won't do any more that you would in a different country from amongst your own small group of safety. It's a catch-22 really. The powers keep stirring the pot and are trying their darnedest to beat us all down for their own purposes. Islam has no bloody idea how they are being manipulated into these positions of conflict. This is my personal take on it all. Both sides are being pressured against each other.

What do I find beautiful? The wonderful descriptions of God and his mercy. The language itself gives further levels of meaning that are simply breathtaking in regards to God's attributes. I wish English was like that. There is a sect in Islam called "Sufi" (both in Shia and in Sunni) that do worship the divinity of God and the fact that God is based on LOVE. But they also hide many of their teachings from the main Shia/Sunni groups in order to keep their inner traditions alive. Sad, but true.

I guess Domenico my curse is being able to see why both sides feel the way they do. There is beauty on both sides really and truly. But the guy above is so very, very right because of their CURRENT INTENT. And that is the greater danger, as politically uncorrect as that comes from this keyboard.

If they had come from a position of would be a totally different story, no?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 26, 2010, 9:02:43 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 26, 2010, 9:04:12 PM PDT
TN says:
<<The wonderful descriptions of God and his mercy>>

Back that up with quotations please, otherwise it's just taqyyah.

I read the Koran and found it the most idiotic and wicked book I ever come across.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 26, 2010, 9:18:53 PM PDT
winoceros says:
Yes, and I'm sure all the evidence you read about came directly from impartial observers. Use your brain. There isn't an incident involving Palestinians that isn't staged or re-told to provide a propaganda vehicle. I notice you exclude yourself from "aredent support of Israel".

Yes, if I believe the evidence the way you report it, I'd be sure he did it on purpose, too. Unreal.

Um, and premonitions? Really?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 26, 2010, 9:23:58 PM PDT
winoceros says:

"ISM claimed these photos were taken within minutes of each other. However, it quickly became apparent that the photos had not been taken sequentially, but probably hours apart. The first photo showed a morning sky; the second photo showed an afternoon sky. The bulldozer in the first picture was not the same one shown in the second picture. The first picture did not fit initial eyewitness reports that Rachel did not have a bullhorn in her hand at the time of the accident nor did it show the mound of earth repeatedly described. ISM bystanders said no photographers were present before the accident occurred."

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 26, 2010, 9:30:19 PM PDT
winoceros says:
"And the verses everyone qualms about? I don't think really mean spiritually what they have translated out to"

Please let me know what, precisely, you base that assertion on.

And it's really astounding that you can't see that the violence between Shia and Sunni will not be solved because of the very thing you claim really isn't in the Quran: the punishment for apostasy, the punishment for shirk, and the punishment for fitna.

Protestants and Catholics in the UK were violent, but not because the text of the Bible told them to make perpetual war against those who have different theological interpretations.

You're just amazing. You are the living incarnation of a dhimmi. Freedom isn't given to you. You have to earn it. Read what you write and tell me you deserve the freedom you have.

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 26, 2010, 9:32:04 PM PDT
winoceros says:
Maybe the verse about Allah being the best Schemer? Maybe the one about Allah being the best Deceiver?

In reply to an earlier post on Oct 31, 2010, 12:06:46 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Oct 31, 2010, 12:10:46 PM PDT
to Conor -- draw comparisons between Jewish and Christian texts and the Koran and you'll miss CRUCIAL distinctions. The Jewish scriptures were for the Jewish people, period, and the blood-and-guts stuff has had no political relevance for 2000 years. The Christian Gospels were a deliberate mish-mash of Jewish lore and Hellenistic myths, that clearly was an attempt to come up with a cult that was peaceable enough to be acceptable to the Romans. NONE OF THIS IS TRUE OF THE KORAN -- which is still taken literally today by millions of potential mass-murderers.

Posted on Oct 31, 2010, 11:22:21 PM PDT
Woa, winoceros looks like you are right about the bulldozer thing...multiple agendas going on, along with photoshoping by the ISMs to get their group agenda pumped up. Leading that girl down the primrose path...but then again, she chose to listen and to go ahead and do it all too. Concede on that one.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010, 6:26:59 AM PDT
T. Behrend says:
A dominionist interpretation of the Christian Bible, in all its parts, is common in US military culture. They and the militarist policies of the USA kill far more people every year than all Muslims of every stripe put together, including the traffic accidents caused by speeding hoons in the peninsula.

And when you say that the canonical gospels were a "deliberate mish-mash", what do you mean by deliberate, and who in particular do you think of when you imagine their historical deliberations?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 1, 2010, 7:49:57 AM PDT
Domenico says:

For this thread give us your views on Geert Wilders. Only.

Come on ! Not even you believe that the US Military follow a bible interpretation.

Posted on Nov 1, 2010, 6:24:44 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 1, 2010, 6:29:21 PM PDT
What I find fascinating about the whole question of Islam's presence in the West, at least from the US point of view, is that is has just about reversed the sort of reactions one would expect the "sides," "liberal" and "conservative,'" to have had. Specifically, the neo-cons, because they are in support of international corporations, ought to be Islamophiles uniformly -- yet Glenn Beck, et al., love getting mileage out of Muslim-bashing; while "the liberals," whoever THEY are, seem not to have noticed that Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi Ali -- who has a job with AEI -- and Ibn Warraq -- who can only get an interview with the Ayn Randers -- are all GENUINE HONEST-TO-GOD LIBERALS of the sort who'd have been congratulated by Orwell, Arendt, and Thurgood Marshall, and are now getting ignored by "The Huff Post." All this shows, I guess, that Islam really IS so NON-Western that ordinary Western categories DON"T APPLY. Any comments?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 2, 2010, 9:01:21 AM PDT
Last edited by the author on Nov 2, 2010, 9:03:21 AM PDT
To T. Behrend: Since Paul's thinking was clearly apocalyptic in the extreme, and so, insofar as anything can be made of his thinking, was Jesus' --both clearly thought that the world was going to end very shortly, and both were wrong -- I don't think that either can be blamed for the "Dominion Christians," who are clearly indulging themselves in what the Catholic Chirch condemned centuries ago as the antenomian heresy -- the idea that any abysmal behavior is justified, as long as it's for God (which heresy, by the way, was one of the reasons for Aquinas' discussion of "natural law" in the SCG). They do NOT NOT NOT represent mainstream Christianity; nowhere does Jesus OR paul order the killing of "unbelievers" (which Mohammed does quite a lot of). As for the "deliberate mish-mash" claim I would think two things self-evident: 1) that the Gospels were added to and subtracted from gradually in order to make them more attractive to a Hellenistic audience, though we obviously have no "rough drafts" from the unknown copyists, and 2) that this is the only POSSIBLE way to explain, for example, the parallels between the virgin birth and Leda and the swan myth, the driving of the demons from the swine episode and the Circe episode in "The Odyssey" (what, after all, is a Jewish farmer doing herding swine?), and the parallel money-changer bits in the Gospels and "The Bacchae."

Posted on Nov 7, 2010, 11:37:33 AM PST
A few more thoughts: one of the biggest reasons, I think, that few American liberals understand what trhe Wilders trial is about is that they haven't the historical context. Specifically, Khomeini inflicted death-squad justice on Rushdie. Then Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Theo van Gogh were the victims of death-squad justice. Wilders kicked up a storm about it, and now he, too, has to live under guard, for fear of death-squad justice. It seems that Europe is living under what really amounts to a Muslim Inquisition, and there's a blanket of silence surrounding the matter. Wilders point is simple -- you cannot have a free society, and a society ruled by fear, at the same time.

Just last week, by accident, I read Garry Wills on Lincoln, and learned that shortly before the war there was a pressure campaign on Northern politicians and newspapers not to say anything "inflammatory" -- and Lincoln drew the conclusion that Douglas was the unwitting diupe of a cabal of politicians who wanted to use the Dred Scott case as an excuse to introduce slavery into the North. Sound familiar?

Thanks to Domenico for putting Wilders' speech up. Anyone who thinks he's a mere bigot should read AHA's "Infidel" -- then wonder how AHA felt, condemned by a death-sentence to sit in a dingy motel, watching the funeral of a freshly murdered friend, and wondering whether a real life would ever be possible for her -- and it really hsn't been. Her only crime was trying to do something about the condition of women under sharia. Sorry, but bigotry is what Wilders is trying to prevent.

Posted on Nov 10, 2010, 6:53:38 AM PST
Domenico says:
What's with the Muslims' obsession to silence others ?

Rapper not guilty of threatening Wilders
Wednesday 10 November 2010

The Hague appeal court has found Dutch rapper Mo$heb not guilty of threatening PVV party leader Geert Wilders, news agency ANP reports.

The court said it was not proven that the rapper had placed the text of the rap with a video clip which included the sound of a pistol shot. The CD version does not include the sound of a gun going off.

Mo$heb was given 80 hours community service by a lower court last December.

The text of the number, entitled Who's next, includes the rapper saying it will be 'bam bam' if he meets Wilders. The rapper also calls on Wilders to take back his words if he wants to stay alive and says 'this is no joke. Last night I dreamed I chopped your head off.'

According to ANP, Wilders made the complaint because of the combination of video, text and pistol shots

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2010, 7:45:20 AM PST
Domenico, it strikes be that the rapper in question is basically some overgrown schoolyard bully who's using Wilders to promote himself, and/or who just cannot stand it when somebody smarter and guttier tells him how UTTERLY FULL OF IT he is. I've often suspected, though, that a lot pf the death-squad-justice mentality in jihadism, and in fact jihadism itself, is due to such verses as the one in Sura 8 that tells you that if you have the opportunity to fight the infidels and turn it down you're gonna fry. Get anyone convinced to the marrow of his bones of something that infantile and you've got a zombie killer out of "The Manchurian Candidate," all tanned, rested, and ready to rock. But heck -- you seem to know the "scriptures" far better that I do -- did I have to remind you of all this? :)

Posted on Nov 15, 2010, 9:33:52 PM PST
I was fascinated by Mara's post at the beginning of this discussion. Can anyone disprove any of those statistics? Of course, the 90%+ countries were wholly Islamic to begin with and are usually 3rd world backwaters. That even includes the oil-producers with oodles of money. I firmly believe any fundamentalist religion is incompatible with democracy. If anyone took the time to read about Buddhism, you might see that this religion tolerates democracy totally. Well, that's a whole new direction -- someone care to back me up?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 15, 2010, 11:40:51 PM PST
TN says:
I know Buddhism. See my reply in other threads.
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