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Customer Discussions > Jazz forum

Avant Garde Jazz

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Showing 101-125 of 1000 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Jan 24, 2009, 6:15:23 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Jan 24, 2009, 6:40:19 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 28, 2009, 4:57:45 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 28, 2009, 4:58:18 PM PST
Spartacus says:
One of the difficulties here is that discussions almost always wind up in the wrong place. I just started another thread called MAINSTREAM DAN (as a peace offering for having started this one). So what happens. Right off we get into a mini-debate as to what defines avant garde versus mainstream. The thread is small so far in case any one wants to check it out and maybe throw in three or four more cents on what you think avant garde means


In reply to an earlier post on Jan 28, 2009, 5:09:07 PM PST
I like how Dan copy and pasted all these musicians from a website. We know he doesn't know that much about jazz.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 28, 2009, 5:39:54 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 28, 2009, 5:40:55 PM PST
Spartacus says:
Dogs and other animals are known to go around and pi$$ on trees, lamp posts, and other objects to mark their territory. That way when other animals arrive they will know they've been there. Not surprisingly instinctive behaviors mutate gradually as you move up the food chain until at some point they are hardly recognizable unless someone who is cognizant of the process points out the obvious similarities which then become glaringly clear.


In reply to an earlier post on Jan 28, 2009, 7:26:24 PM PST
zaytox says:
Geezis Dan, thanks for the link to this thread, but I'm looking at this alphabetical list and it's almost taken my breath away. There's a lot of names I know there but I feel like I'm looking at the undersides of your feet running in a cloud of dust waaaay up ahead. :-)

You've either got a lot of money and a lot of time or not much of either once the music stops. :-)
ps, I saw on your Amazon profile a couple of Billy Bang covers. I only saw him once, before Frank Lowe died. He came into Buffalo with his sexntet of the time, Andrew Bemke, Todd Nicholson (and I'm spacing out on the name of the cornet/pocket horn player...and who was on drums?) . Truly one of the greatest shows I'd ever witnessed.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 28, 2009, 7:42:43 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 29, 2009, 10:21:20 AM PST
Spartacus says:
I saw him in November at The Stone with Roy Campbell. Right out on the edge! I spent a lot of time building that list. I try to track down whoever I can. I have about 500+ groups/leaders now that I consider avant garde. Of course different people have different ideas of what that is.

There's been quite a bit of friction here on Amazon from people who think we should be run off. But I don't give them an inch and mostly they get tired after a while and chill out.

There are also people who like this stuff and are very knowledgeable contributors. You can have some real fun here if you stick around.

Be sure to check out that other thread that I linked to the first post. I don't know anywhere else on the web where there's a group like this. That's why I decided to try to keep this end of the pool free for swimmers.


In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2009, 3:47:46 AM PST
Dan et al (I always wanted to say that.)

Speaking of players who can play well both "inside" and "outside" have you ever heard of an reed player named Tony "Batman" Ortega? He played and recorded with Zappa and as a side man on many recordings that cover the entire spectrum of modern music. He has only made three albums as a leader according to the info I have, ; "Jazz for Moderns", "New Dance" "and Raindance". The Batman (from Hawaii and a consort of Gabe Baltazar) is not to be confused with Anthony Ortega legendary LA born saxophonist. This happens all too frequently and the two are often confused.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2009, 4:42:19 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 30, 2009, 4:43:04 AM PST
Spartacus says:
That is easy to confuse because they are both listed variously as Anthony Ortega.


In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2009, 7:00:13 AM PST

I have "New Dance" and it is definitely by the LA born alto saxophonist Anthony Ortega. I wasn't aware of another musician by that name. According to my discographal information, the other albums you name are also by the LA born Anthony Ortega.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2009, 8:17:45 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 30, 2009, 8:19:30 AM PST

I am beginning to think the two are one in the same. The only difference was the date of birth I have seen. However the "Batman" I mentioned rented a place together with Gabe Balthazar in 1957 or 58 and I remember (maybe not right) that that Batman and Gabe seemed like friends since childhood.

Let me ask you; do the liner notes on any of those albums call him "Barman"? Could you check and see? I'd appreciate it. Thanks in advance Susan. Many Filipinos look Latin American and vice-versa so maybe I got the Hawaii thing wrong. I do remember him very well as a good teacher because he gave me his copy of "The Universal Saxophone Method" by Paul Deville and it has a drawing on the cover (by Tony) of a clarinet and the words "the Batman". I am beginning to think it is one in the same person. Maybe some of his family were from Hawaii because there is a lot of connection between Filipinos and Mexicans in California. I can't remember if the Batman could speak Spanish or not but that probably means nothing. In any event it is an interesting mystery. Oh well it's physical therapy time so I'm outta here for an hour.

On edit: At 70 even the tiger's memory starts to go south.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2009, 10:04:38 AM PST

Yes, the liner notes on New Dance refer to Anthony Ortega as "Batman." There is quite a long biography about him, born in LA of Mexican-American parents, lived in Norway for a while, worked with Gerald Wilson and Don Ellis. No mention of Gabe Baltazar or Frank Zappa.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2009, 10:14:58 AM PST
Case Quarter says:

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2009, 10:46:05 AM PST
Spartacus says:


In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2009, 1:52:04 PM PST
Thank you for taking the time to look up that information. It's undoubtedly the same person. I must have the Hawaii connection wrong. Hawaian, being products of a true melting pot, can look like just about anyone in the world. I am surprised that there is no mention of Gabe Baltazar as they were quite close. There is a mention on the Net about the two them both being in a band on a Johnny Hartman recording.
"The Grand Wazoo" was the first of two Zappa albums he appeared on.

Case Quarter:
Thanks for the link. That picture seals it. I am talking about two people who are one. That's a picture of him as I remember him. Here's a few more facts for those interested:

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 30, 2009, 5:18:11 PM PST
Tony Ortega

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 4, 2009, 10:00:55 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 4, 2009, 1:10:34 PM PST
Spartacus says:
Re: Giuseppe Logan

I copied the following from These posts are from last year. Does anyone have any recent info? (A couple of years back when I decided to get copies of Logan's two ESP albums, I had to have them imported from Spain...expensive! Now he's woodsheding in Thompkins Square Park! But the good news apparently is that he found his son. Back when, after his divorce, he threw away his career to look for the kid, or so it's said. The stories there must be about this guy if you knew who to ask!)


I just spoke with Mr Logan today. He practices most everyday in Tompkins Square Park. He told me that he's been in and out of institutions for the last 20 years and has been back for about 6 months. He is currently getting back into shape for an upcoming recording date. He asked me to sing the song girl talk by Neal Hefti to him so that he could learn the whole tune. Nice man.

I forgot to mention that there was a short promotional film that was done for ESP records that had him and his son playing in Thompkins Square Park. It was shown during the last vision fest.

you should ask marge davis and check out for her contact info. i was also very wondering about mr. logan myself and she said he was living in a motel in the lower e.s. that was awhile back but i would inquire with her.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 5, 2009, 1:44:13 PM PST
Spartacus says:
I get the hard copy version of all about jazz mailed to me monthly, even though I work in New York. It's a great newspaper and the amount of detail every month is staggering. You have to read it carefully not to miss anything and this month under the club listings I noticed a session for 2/20 in Brooklyn that included both Arthur Doyle and Perry Robinson. I'm familiar with Doyle, but I wouldn't know about Robinson if I hadn't been talking to an amateur jazz clarinet player last week who told me that to his knowledge there was nobody out there that was further out on the creative edge of jazz among clarinet players than Robinson. I tried to get more information on the Net but didn't find much. Is anyone familiar with Robinson and what he has done in the past?


Posted on Feb 5, 2009, 3:30:44 PM PST
Case Quarter says:
our host has cds and an autobiography by perry robinson for sale. also a list of musicians he's played with. archie shepp is mentioned so i rummaged thru the shepp on vinyl i own and found robinson a player on mama too tight, a really good recording, one i haven't played in a couple of years though, the casualities of habitual buying of the music on succeeding media. anyway, here's the chance for me to listen to mama too tight for the next few days from a new perspective, with an ear cocked for robinson.

shepp also provides the linear notes on mama too tight, and in talking about robinson, shepp mentions barney bigard. so now who is barney bigard?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 5, 2009, 4:12:22 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 5, 2009, 4:14:31 PM PST
Barney Bigard was a big star on clarinet in the early Ellington band, 1927-1942. He also played tenor sax. Later, he was a mainstay with the Louie Armstrong all stars. Barney was one of the most famous jazz men of the 1930s - 1950s. He died in 1980.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 5, 2009, 4:27:16 PM PST
Spartacus says:
Thanks Case,

I have Mama Too Tight but not the cover.


Right answer, wrong thread.


In reply to an earlier post on Feb 5, 2009, 4:32:40 PM PST
Case Quarter says:
lots of years ago maurice mcintyre was invited by some organization here in connecticut to speak during black history month on jazz. he gave the impression he wasn't too happy being here. he named numerous jazz musicians and at each name asked the audience if anyone ever heard of the single musicians he mentioned. none of us in the audience had. years later i learned all the musicians mcintyre had named had at one time or another played in the ellington band. the more i listen to jazz and persons talking about jazz the more i realize how little i know.

Posted on Feb 5, 2009, 5:00:16 PM PST
Nitya says:
Dan- what is the main theme in Avant Garde Jazz that puts it the category? I think I probably play a lot of Avant Garde Jazz on Sonic Universe. I think Supersilent is Avant Garde Jazz. I think Jon Hassell's work on Vernal Equinox is Avant Garde Jazz. Johannes Enders is playing right now and I think it is probably Avant Garde Jazz. I think I have always liked Avant Garde Jazz but just didn't know what to call it. I certainly like the mix cd you made for Rusty that was labled Avant Garde Jazz.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 5, 2009, 5:03:45 PM PST
Dan: "Right answer, wrong thread."

Dan, what does that mean?

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 5, 2009, 5:07:26 PM PST
willm says:
Bob's Pink Cadillac by William Parker Clarinet Trio features Perry Robinson.On Eremite records.

In reply to an earlier post on Feb 5, 2009, 7:22:17 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Feb 5, 2009, 7:55:09 PM PST
Spartacus says:
Case Quarter,

You're not the only one to be amazed by their own ignorance-not a day goes by that I don't run across a number of musicians I have never heard of. What gets me even more is that when I check them out, half of them, if not more are on one or several albums I already own. Perry Robinson is a good example of that.


Avant garde as I use the term is very near to the standard dictionary definition of the term meaning "advance guard" or "vanguard"; refering to people or works that are experimental or innovative, representing a pushing of the boundaries of what is accepted as the norm or the status quo. Music journalist and some fans and musicians may have a narrower more specific definition in mind. Using my approach, there has always been an avant gard and most innovations are eventually assimilated to some extent into the mainstream.

Much if not most of the music you program on SomaFM is what I would consider to be avant garde. I think that if you apply my definition to American jazz, you can pretty easily tell the difference. The avant garde are always playing and writing music that is significantly different from what most others play, the majority comprising the mainstream at any given point in time. I don't see other definitions being necessarily wrong-they are just not mine. Susan for example has a clearly different way of looking at this label-not right or wrong, just different.


Despite everything you say about Bigard being true, I don't see it as a probable extension of a discussion of avant garde jazz.


Thanks for the reference. I have that one too.

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Discussion in:  Jazz forum
Participants:  97
Total posts:  2509
Initial post:  Oct 5, 2008
Latest post:  10 days ago

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