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Why is Steam suddenly bad?

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In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 6:24:41 PM PDT
R. J. Satori says:
Noliving: the end result is different. I take care of my CD or DVD, I never lose the software. I trust a company that has already proven to me twice personally that they are untrustworthy to ensure my use of the software... and I may never have it in the first place.

That is the reality.

If I take good care of my property I never have to "burn" a backup, either, so that's a moot point.

Your retaliation against Dreamingby's statement is also based on trusting an untrustworthy company that has no contractual obligation to do what they claim. Perhaps if Valve had a glowing record of respect for their customers your trust would be justified, but Valve has no such record.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 6:38:44 PM PDT
Noliving says:
The problem here is that you are applying your experience or your usage to everyone when you know the majority of people don't do what you do. It is reality for you but not for the majority of people. The end result is the same, no game, they not different, how you get to that result is different.

His(dreamingby's) retaliation was nothing more then him making a statement with nothing that proves his statement and trying to pass it off as fact. So my retaliation was based on the same thing, statements. When it comes to valves record, some people think they have a glowing record, other do not see it as such a glowing record, samething with you when it comes to saying they are untrustworthy company, a lot of people would disagree with you and claim they are trustworthy.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 6:49:07 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 7:04:49 PM PDT
Noliving says:
Hmm lets see dreamingby wow very good you got me.... Wow. Those games are already freeware on the internet. Your right that Sega probably doesn't like idea of there games with no copy protection, so they will just add cd keys to it, you already have to add cd keys for games like doom3, farcry and the like on steam. Right click on the icon and then click on view games cd key. Look at halo for the pc, you could do a burn and run the game from the burned copy, unlike blizzard, and not only that you could make up any cd key you wanted to and it would accept that. Look at sins for a solar empire.

Here is some knock on wood for you. You really think that if steam goes down that sega is going to say: "lets screw all of customers over and say you can't play these games anymore."

You really think that is going to happen that Sega is going to go to their customers and do that.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 7:09:51 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 7:13:18 PM PDT
Dreaming.. says:
Dude, or dudette.

You're original message was:

"mmm lets see dreamingby, do you have any evidence that suggest sega has done that or any 3rd part developer on Steam has asked valve for that? In order for them to attain those services they would have to own Valve's Steam, they don't own Steam now do they, and if they did that would mean Steam wouldn't go out of service if valve went bankrupt now would it?

All those games on steam are already available as freeware on pirating sites."

Soooo... it seems that you had a hard time with the term "attain"

let's see

transitive verb 1 : to reach as an end : gain , achieve <attain a goal> 2 : to come into possession of : obtain <he attained preferment over his fellows> 3 : to come to as the end of a progression or course of movement <they attained the top of the hill> <attain a ripe old age>

To make it east for you, I will pick the second option to rephrase part of my original post, in which BTW I never said X company (SEGA in my example) were trying to buy the actual company:
SEGA: We would like to attain (2 : to come into possession of : obtain) ***YOUR SERVICES*** for online distribution AND authentication of our games.

Noliving, the next time you would like to counter my argument, or any argument for that matter, at least try to come with an strong one.

**Those games are already freeware on the internet. **
Sure, those silly companies paying steam and d2d and the such to distribute their games when they should just distribute them for free.....

Hint: the topic has evolved to cover the invasive nature of DRM resources, as in steam.

That's the second time you change your whole message, indeed it seems like I got you good...

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 7:38:15 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 7:42:17 PM PDT
Noliving says:
So you don't like it when people edit their posts? I clearly realized what you mean by attain by the fact that I edited my posts. Do you have a problem with that? Are the games not freeware on pirating sites, that is clearly what I meant. So you do believe that sega would say to their customers that if Steam went down you can't play these games anymore? It's a good thing you brought up d2d, because that is probably what sega would do if steam went down for the steam customers in terms of copy protection, because when valve notifies them they are shutting down steam those publishers can release a patch at the same time valve does through steam adding what ever copy protection they want.

So because I edited my posts before you responded means you got me? So because people edit their posts you got them?

Clearly I got you good considering you ignored the whole "would sega really screw their customers over part".

Oh I did come up with an argument, that is why I edited my posts, there is no point in creating a new post if the person your responding to hasn't posted a response yet. Like I just did with this post.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 7:42:18 PM PDT
Dreaming.. says:
"So because I edited my posts me you got me?"

No, because you said so.

Thanks for taking the time to argue with me, I'm sure your facts are very true for you, so does mine for me, but I've grown bored of this, moving on.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 7:42:59 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 7:59:51 PM PDT
R. J. Satori says:
The Better Business Bureau backs up my assessment of Valve.

On the other hand, you have a bevy of fans overlooking Valve's abusive nature because of the enjoyment they get from playing the games. It's a lot like a young fellow who is so happy to be getting a little action from a hot girl that he lets her treat him like a doormat. In both cases, you know that relationship is destined for a bad end.

I don't know what "most people" do with their personal belongings. Maybe parents stopped teaching children not to break their toys sometime since my generation was coming up. As I see it, if YOU break your toy, the toy company has no obligation to replace it. If the toy company is selling faulty merchandise, that's another matter. And if the toy company somehow figures it has the authority to control where, when and how you play with that toy, said toy company is severely overstepping it's rights as a merchant. Very different matters, with very different outcomes -- your equivocations just don't make sense.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 7:57:53 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 8:09:13 PM PDT
Noliving says:
I know what BBB assessment of valve is but that assessment has nothing to do with what would do if steam went down. That BBB assessment mainly has to do with the no refund policy(unless you can't launch the program/game) of valve, if you go to Valve's steam forums that pretty much is the biggest reason poeple give for BBB complaints. Even though the BBB does a breakdown of the issues and only a few of them were refund issues it really is about the fact that a game that launches doesn't work right away and they want a refund right away and they don't like waiting the 3-5 business days for a response so they complain about the customer service or customer support in that way. In fact most of the issues were apparently resolved according to BBB just that the customers failed to inform the bbb.

The problem here is that video games are considered software, not toys. Microsoft, Apple, Symantec, etc all try to control where and how you use their software. It's the samething with Pc games. Even when it was retail, if you look at command and conquer the first one, the retail eula from back then clearly states you can only have the game installed on one computer at a time and you can't allow anyone else to play the game other then yourself. The only thing that is really happening is that Software creators are coming up with tools to enforce the license agreement. Go through all the eula's for pc games from the early 90's and you will see they all show the creators of those PC games telling you how to use their software and how you can't use their software.

You may not know what most people do with their belongings but it is fair to assume that most people don't take the time to care for disc the way you do based upon my own observations, how many of the people you know in your life take the time to treat the disc the same way you do. How many parents teach their kids how to handle a disc? I know my parents didn't nor did my friends parents when we were growing up.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 8:01:29 PM PDT
Noliving says:
dreamingby, so because I misinterpreted what you meant the first time I read through means you got me? Clearly I got what you meant by the fact that I edited my post at the part that I misinterpreted before you made a reply.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 8:06:33 PM PDT
Dreaming.. says:

It's just a discussion on some forum on the WWW....try to not take everything said in a personal way.


Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 8:13:04 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 8:14:13 PM PDT
Noliving says:
I'm not, its just that your argument doesn't make any sense. "That person misinterpreted what I said and then edited the post before I made a response that does correctly interpret what I said which means I got that person good"

Having someone misinterpret what you said does not mean you got them good. Do you understand that dreamingby? I'm just pointing that out to you.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 8:17:23 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 8:21:00 PM PDT
R. J. Satori says:
Talking about EULA's now?

Here's a tidbit from the Steam EULA:


Gosh, where's that guarantee that you won't be robbed of access to your games if Valve is dissolved, again? Not here, that's for sure.

EULAs in the past have been something of a joke. They've not been upheld very well in the courts, especially when they claim rights or limitations that are clearly unlawful. No doubt major software publishers are lobbying politicians and lawmakers to push through legislation that support their new definitions of property, but we consumers also have our advocates. This is a subject of contention that is ongoing, not settled, and these companies "coming up with tools to enforce" their restrictions only ensure that we will be having this out in the courts sooner than later.

I can only hope that people recognize when their longstanding rights as consumers are being threatened and speak up against it.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 8:18:20 PM PDT
Noliving says:
Just to also point this one thing out real quickly, there are over 15 million accounts and only around 150+ complaints to the BBB. So chances are it is not that bad.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 8:22:05 PM PDT
Dreaming.. says:
Noliving, you seem to be so eager to keep engaged in this discussion that I will reply to this last one, You pick whatever outcome you see fit for your purpose, after that don't bother to waste time replying as I will not even pay attention to it.

1. Noliving
Hmm lets see dreamingby wow very good you got me.... Wow.

2. Dreamingby
That's the second time you change your whole message, indeed it seems like I got you good...

3. Noliving
So because I edited my posts me you got me?

4. Dreamingby
No, because you said so.

5. Noliving
dreamingby, so because I misinterpreted what you meant the first time I read through means you got me?

6. Dreamingby
No, because you said so.

7. Noliving
dreamingby, so because I misinterpreted what you meant the first time I read through means you got me?

8. Dreamingby
No, because you said so.

And so on, and so on, and so on....
Be well.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 8:25:52 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 8:28:06 PM PDT
R. J. Satori says:
Valve can count every person who ever applied for an account, including those who had to sign up more than once because of some problem. That counts me. Twice.

But even as I am arguing here against the company's policies, I have not personally filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Perhaps I should. Maybe I'm the only person with complaints against the company that has not done so already. Or maybe it didn't seem all that necessary with the company already clearly identified as an abuser...

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 8:29:26 PM PDT
Noliving says:
Oh I agree that there is no gurantee that you won't be robbed of access to your games if valve is dissolved again. But at the same time though that is also there to protect them if the service goes out for a period of time, lets say for a few hours, if they didn't put that in there in the EULA and they took the service down for maintainance, they would be wide open for lawsuites. All mmorpg games eula have something very similar to that part of Steams eula and that is they can't gurantee 24/7 service. Because you know right away as soon as a server goes down for upgrades people complain and if it wasn't for that part of the eula they would be sued and they would lose in court. I mean look Mcdonalds and the hot coffee.

Parts of EULA have not upheld very well in courts, but those parts basically invalidate the whole eula agreement. A part that would uphold and would be lawful is only having the game being installed on computer at a time, or not having anyone else but you play the game. Look at those movie agreement, unless your doing it for education or you have written permission we have all shown a movie to a friend privately who hasn't seen the movie before. That would be upheld in court.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 8:36:12 PM PDT
M. Moore says:
Dreamingby- If Steam goes out of business tommorow, you really think they'll say
"sorry, you can't play the games you bought through us anymore." Highly unlikely! Come on.. just common sense, dude.

I am an a Steam user so I understand the things you and R.J Satori are saying.

I've made the effort to think of some possible ideas to help alleviate all the people who are pissed off at Steam:

1. Steam NEEDS to ship the F'n box when you purchase games on Steam.
The electronic transfer is revolutionary, but what is becoming apparant is that they still need to
send the original game box. Especially since Steam is charging full retail price anyways.
They need to allow digital transfer (for right now), AND ship the original video game box
(which will come 5-7 days). Full retail price for a digital-only copy is total BS.

2. The game's default installation path needs to remain intact.
As of now, all games purchased off steam gets saved in Steam's directory. To any developer, that is a big no-no.
I don't want to have to navigate to Steam's install folder every time I want to manipulate the game's files.

I think hating on Steam is not a good idea. In a dying PC market nowdays, Steam's technology is still worthwhile.
Part of what is making Steam worthwhile is that they are trying, and they upgrade. We shouldn't
knock in Steam's front teeth (via the B.B.B., lol) before they are even fully developed yet.

P.S- I want to add that there is a growing "indie" type community which is based off open beta's, freeware, etc.
Some examples of some good scenes I've checked out lately are: (this site is new so it is still pretty bare, but i see a lot of potential in this or online services like this) (this is a part of instantaction, play Tribes 2 again, FOR FREE (this site isn't ready yet)) (quake 3 is old, but this is free and they are testing out a lot of new online features like stats, profiles, etc)
XBOX Live Arcade (XBOX Live seems to be really pushing this new portion)

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 8:37:56 PM PDT
Noliving says:
You forgot to point out dreamingby that I edited my posts before you made your reply. You then said because I edited my post, before you made your reply, due to a misinterpretation that you did indeed got me good. I was being sarcastic when I said you got me good, you then said that you did indeed got me good because I edited the posts. I'm just pointing out to you that editing a post before you make a reply due to a misinterpretation does not mean you got me good. You are the one saying you did got me good. You weren't saying you got me good because I said it, you said you got me good because I edited the post. Which one of your posts came first, you saying you got me good because I said you got me, or because you said I must have indeed got you good because you edited your post. It's the latter you posted first.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 9:13:17 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 9:18:46 PM PDT
R. J. Satori says:
Actually, the federal laws on home videos only limit "public performance." That would be putting it on display out on the street or in the lobby area of a hotel for anyone to view. Putting it on for your friends in your own home, even if you are holding a party of dozens of people, remains "private home use" as allowed by the agreement. Another nifty thing about that disclaimer on home videos is that it is a standardized license agreement pre-approved by the US and/or International legislature and used by the entire industry.

You also mentioned MMO games. It's pretty clear that this is where Valve got their idea for Steam. They looked at the early MMOs and saw that the "client software" for those games was not usable without a commitment to the companies running the game servers. Nefarious people like those running Valve just had to figure out how to get a piece of that kind of action. Even without the subscription fees there are plenty of ways for a publisher to benefit from keeping every customer on the line.

But there was a difference, MMOs were essentially a service. They dedicated server space, processing time and bandwidth to each subscriber. I believe that there may even have been legal challenges in the beginning to the idea of a piece of software that would not function without a service subscription, resulting in a special exception for these kinds of services in which the "client" is merely a means of accessing the service (these days there are a variety of such services -- even your Anti-Virus protection may conform to this paradigm).

Valve had no intention of providing any such real service. Their developers weren't interested in persistent worlds, their customer base even included many gamers who were not interested in online games at all . So they came up with Steam. Steam has enough functionality that it can be called an online service, apparently, so it is a "client." And in order to control the usage of various games it treats them all as plugins to that client -- it makes no difference if the game is meant to be used online or off, it is an extension of the client. Just the sort of rigmarole one should expect from an unscrupulous company like Valve, really.

I'm not sure if Valve calculated that their Steam "community" service would manipulate users into becoming such rabid defenders of the company. Sometimes I think it was a coincidence they stumbled upon. Sometimes I suspect that Valve are cunning students of B.F.Skinner, willfully manipulating people. Maybe it's somewhere in between. However they got there, THAT is the most disturbing aspect of the whole Steam affair.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 9:57:35 PM PDT
Noliving says:
Ya that is what I was thinking when it came to the movies.

Steam is a service, it may not be the type of service you like but it is one. Steam is nothing more then a digital content distribution service: movies,songs, antivirus, operating systems can all be distributed through steam. All they did was add an authentication part(cd key check along with user name and password) to it that is not required in order for the software to work on steam. You can run the software in offline mode, you may not be happy with how it works though. The truth of the matter is that all services in their agreements you sign/agree to state they can't provide 24/7 service. Steam is a service and not a surprise does have that in its eula that it can't provide 24/7 service for the rest of your life.

You never own a piece of software considering you can't see the entire source code. You may have it on a disc but you don't own the software.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 10:00:15 PM PDT
M. Moore says:
Hi quick reply to RJ Satori:

Your views are over-skewered. Claiming that Steam is brainwashing the community is just plain wrong. You can't deny that Steam is the best method right now to fight piracy in a minimally-intrusive way. They still need to figure stuff out, but they aren't trying to punish the community like Sony's SecuROM.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 10:25:10 PM PDT
Dreaming.. says:

I just don't see any company making releases (specially the newest) of their intellectual property thru steam and accepting a contractual agreement that specifies that in case of steam going out, patches are going to be released to remove the drm protection they signed for in the first place.

So I fully believe valve games will get unprotected if the day comes when steam would disappear. But I don't delude myself in thinking that a publisher with a track record of neglecting their customers, being existent, will be there to protect their right of the customers when they stop to be.

And for the record, I own a couple of games on steam myself, bought at a discounted price of course.

Posted on Apr 7, 2009, 10:39:55 PM PDT
Noliving says:
It's also very well possible that they will release a patch at the same time through valve adding their copy protection to their games and at the same time removing valve's copy protection through steam. Since the games are also available through d2d its very much possible the publishers will just add the same copy protection they use for the d2d in that patch if they were to do it that way.

In reply to an earlier post on Apr 7, 2009, 11:26:46 PM PDT
Last edited by the author on Apr 7, 2009, 11:52:52 PM PDT
R. J. Satori says:
"You can't deny that Steam is the best method right now to fight piracy in a minimally-intrusive way."

Oh yes I can.

Just personally, I'd take SecuROM, complete with limited installations even, over Steam in a heartbeat. Though the Steam client MAY not have Kernel access and may not interfere with the function of unrelated software, Steam is incredibly intrusive on the USER. Steam does interfere with related software functionality, imposes unwanted updates, clogs my bandwidth with advertisement spam, and ultimately threatens to prevent my use of software I paid to use (whether I "own the software" or not). I'll accept that both system are bad, in different ways, but equally.

That's just picking my poison, though.

Others have been pointing to Stardock's Impulse client <> as a superior alternative. I haven't had a run-in with this one yet, but since even Steam objectors are recommending it I'm game to give it every chance. It certainly sounds like they've got the right idea.

Of course, I am aware of the heavy dose of 'colour' I've been using in this argument. I just figure it balances the absurdity from the Steam advocates' side of things. ;)

Comparing different DRM solutions doesn't accomplish much for us customers. Unfortunately, WE can't pick which system is used in the games we want to play. Stardock's Impulse/Goo may be the perfect solution, but if publishers choose Steam or SucuROM or Starforce we're still screwed. This ruckus on the Amazon boards and the "one star review" crusades are an attempt to steer publishers away from these options in the future, and toward possibly more user-friendly solutions.


Posted on Apr 8, 2009, 12:05:26 AM PDT
Noliving says:
Well to be fair though when it comes to steam you can disable the automatic updates and you can also disable the advertisements, those advertisements only show up when you just launched steam, they don't popup like an hour after having launched steam.
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