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Which ideologies exist without religion?


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Showing 1-25 of 75 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Nov 12, 2012, 1:12:18 PM PST
'probabilist says:
Which ideologies exist without religion?

Thanks,

'prob

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 1:24:00 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
Lots. Communism, capitalism Nazism, anarchism, etc,.... are a few that come to mind off hand. Religion is just an ideology with a "God says" tacked on at the beginning. It's a little like "Simon says" for the believers.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 2:26:40 PM PST
Jeff Marzano says:
Ataraxia says:

[Lots. Communism, capitalism Nazism, anarchism, etc.]

Nazism isn't one of them. The relationships between the Nazis and religion are fascinating.

I already had the following message saves so I'll just past it in below.

My Michael Myers rune symbol doesn't show correctly because the space characters get deleted. The bottom part is supposed to be shaped like a 'V'.

Strangely I got one of those tattoos after watching the movie Halloween 4. My reasons for doing that are buried deep somewhere in the recesses of my mind.

Jeff Marzano

Jeff Marzano says:

Franklin B. Siegle says:

[Because they arise from us they can be all the way from positive to negative, constructive to destructive, e.g. the Master Race as a metaphor for a desire to forge a dominating, controlling people.]

I just watched a fascinating TV show I had seen before called Nazis: The Occult Conspiracy.

The Nazis believed in the Atlantean super race and felt that the blood line of the gods of Atlantis had become polluted because of their marriage with inferior races.

Hitler felt that the only solution to this dilemma was a process of sterilization and extermination that would take hundreds of years. That's what they were trying to do with the death camps and their euthanasia programs.

Hitler and the boys combined elements from Christianity, mythology, and the occult to create a new religion. Christian symbols such as re-enacting Christ's path to the crucifixion found new forms with the Nazis where Hitler would retrace the path where 'the 16' Nazi martyrs were killed during his failed coup attempt. Hitler was presented to the German public as a messianic savior.

Heinrich Himmler was one of the strangest men in history. He was a true occultist. Himmler created or refurbished a weird castle that contained artifacts and symbols which corresponded with his occult beliefs. Himmler believed he was the reincarnation of the first king of Germany, King Heinrich, who saved Germany from a Slavic invasion.

Himmler was the head of the infamous SS. The SS insignia is formed from a pair of rune symbols.

How much the German people bought into all of this I'm not sure. They believed some of it though.

Fringe author Joseph Farrell is fascinated with the Nazis. Farrell states that their occult beliefs went much farther than just religion. The Nazis were trying to resurrect the lost sciences of the Atlantean super race to create new weapons.

Interestingly when Michael Myers were resurrected in the Halloween 4 movie he was sporting a tattoo on his wrist that is also a rune symbol:

00
------------------
\ /
\ /
\/

Posted on Nov 12, 2012, 2:51:30 PM PST
Alan says:
Depending on one's definition of religion Deism might count, a belief in a creator God but rejection of all revealed religion and of anything supernatural. No creed, no observances, no prohibitions, no scripture, no clergy, no church.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 3:37:00 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Panentheism, my favorite "ism", is also a system with no specific dogmas or organized rituals.

Posted on Nov 12, 2012, 3:38:50 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Dec 13, 2012, 7:33:27 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 6:49:47 PM PST
Ddms says:
Many evangelical Christians seem to think that the New Testament:

-- opposes virtually any role for government in the protection or advancement of personal liberties.

-- supports a regressive system of taxation.

-- opposes any government role in enhancing economic equality, opportunity and social justice.

-- favors an unregulated economy of the type advocated by Ayn Rand theorists. (Ayn Rand was an atheist, by the way.)

Can anybody explain what those things have to do with the New Testament or the teachings of Jesus? Any chapter and verse on that stuff?

(Other evangelical Christian "policies" include strict state control over "morality," (by which they mean sex), the use of public schools as conduits of Christian principles (including the Genesis view of cosmology, biology and anthropology) and the notion that the U.S. is a "Christian nation," and opposition to laws they think don't comport with scripture. I can understand their position on those things; at least they have SOMETHING to do with their religion. But the economic stuff? I just don't get it.)

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 6:52:28 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 13, 2012, 8:44:08 AM PST
Ddms says:
I'd say socialism, but that would leave out a lot of history. Socialism from the beginning was based on Christian principles, the Sermon on the Mount, that kind of stuff.

Europe has Christian Socialist parties, but both terms are vestigial. Like the rest of Europe, they embrace secularism and capitalism.

Clueless American evangelical Christians stupidly equate socialism with Satanism.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 6:54:33 PM PST
Ddms says:
Now we know what Deism and Panentheism are NOT.

But what ARE they?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 6:55:15 PM PST
Ddms says:
Alan wrote: "No creed, no observances, no prohibitions, no scripture, no clergy, no church."

You left out one thing: no point.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 8:19:18 PM PST
Astrocat says:
Panentheism posits that there is one divine Life that is imminent and transcendent, a continuum of Spirit/Matter. Everything is "God", there is nothing and no thing that is not divine is essence, from the most seemingly inert piece of iron or lead to the farthest reaches of consciousness. We are Life/God in manifestation, just as much as the gaseous nebulae and the most distant galaxies.

I'll let someone else explain Deism, though I think they already have, upstream.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 8:25:53 PM PST
Ataraxia says:
Exactly. Deism is (or was?) More of a "let's get on with our lives and leave superstitious religion behind" kind of thinking, while still captivated by cosmological arguments for the existence of some kind of intelligent designer/creator God.

As science has advanced, the need for that kind of God has also diminished as well. You know what they say: a deist is an atheist who hasn't thought about it long enough.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 8:39:02 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 12, 2012, 8:54:36 PM PST
tokolosi says:
sex, drugs, rock-n-roll

;-p

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 8:53:22 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Dec 13, 2012, 7:34:16 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 8:57:04 PM PST
[Deleted by the author on Dec 13, 2012, 7:37:58 PM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 12, 2012, 9:05:35 PM PST
tokolosi says:
"a deist is an atheist who hasn't thought about it long enough."

or perhaps: A deist is an atheist who uses the label in religiously dominated cultures to avoid unnecessary ostracization, or even direct persecution. Highly useful ~200 years ago. Less necessary today.

Posted on Nov 13, 2012, 5:02:42 AM PST
Alan says:
tokolosi

You might be right up to a point.

However take the example of Thomas Paine, he was not frightened to speak his mind. As an Englishman he wrote 'Common Sense' which demanded the complete independence of pre-revolutionary Americans from Britain. He wrote 'The Rights of Man' in support of the French Revolution and the abolition of Monarchy.

He was possibly the most famous Deist, second in importance only to Thomas Jefferson. He wrote 'The Age of Reason' the 'Bible' of Deism (I know that is a contradiction, but I hope you will know what I mean). 'The Age of Reason' savaged Christianity, the Bible and all supernatural belief, the book was banned in England. In this book Paine defended his profound belief in a Creator God and that he hoped for a life after this one.

He wrote it in France at the time of the French Revolution, prompted in part by the Revolution's rejection of God and its' Atheistic agenda. He was not concerned what effect this might have on his social standing because he was in prison at the time and his execution warrant had already been signed by Robespierre himself. It was by pure chance that he survived. Nothing he said could have made any difference, he professed his belief in God because that is what he sincerely believed. It is of course quite possible, though not certain, that had he known about evolution and 'Big Bang' theory he would have become an Atheist.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 13, 2012, 5:19:49 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 13, 2012, 5:23:58 AM PST
Alan says:
D. Thomas

You write: "You left out one thing: No point"

I think you have actually missed 'the point'. The point is that one reaches one's own conclusions based on one's own reasoning and one's own understanding gained from the study of the natural world of which man is a part. The meaning one finds for oneself has far more moral and intellectual value and validity than a second-hand meaning gained from others.

The other 'point' to such an approach is that, being individual, it doesn't matter at all if others choose to hold opposing beliefs

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 13, 2012, 5:35:54 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 13, 2012, 5:39:33 AM PST
Ambulocetus says:
I think this is tricky to answer without a definition of religion. Unfortunately, we westerners tend toward the parochial view that religion = theism, so depending on your definition of "religion," Zen Buddhism, Taoism, and Shinto may or may not count.

I like Peter Berger's way of talking about religion. The world is painful, perplexing, and unjust. It seems that the universe does not care a whit for our needs, is not made to be comprehended by our (unaided) faculties, and that what you do has no relationship whatsoever to what happens to you. This leads to "anomie," a sense that there is no meaning or purpose to life.

Religion provides a nomos, that is, a stable system of concepts and their relationships which 1) makes the universe seem at least partially built for us, comprehensible, and just, and which 2) makes the existing social order seem to mirror the structure of the universe. The individual is thus encapsulated within a rational social order (which s/he mirrors), and this social order in turn is encapsulated within a rational cosmos (which it mirrors in turn).
The Sacred Canopy: Elements of a Sociological Theory of Religion

On this account, all the various forms of Nazism and Marxism would count as religions, as would Zen, Taoism, and Shinto.

And so would the rationalistic atheism of Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris. These men see the world as perfectly rational and comprehensible by empirical means (no other means matter). Further, if only religion were to disappear tomorrow, there would be no war, no suicide terrorism, and no genocide (cf. the "lion laying down with the lamb" in Christian and Marxist eschatology). There is a single, simple approach to understanding everything in the universe (logic, math, science), and any form of knowledge other than these, like philosophy and the other humanistic disciplines, is just needless concept-juggling for people who aren't very good at math. Once religion is eliminated and all humanistic disciplines are scientized, the universe will be perfectly echoed by the social order, and neverending peace would be the result.

The Moral Landscape: How Science Can Determine Human Values
http://thesciencenetwork.org/media/press/New_Scientist_BB.pdf

Compare this with the Soviet attempt to scientize Marxist doctrine, and to teach this scientized Marxism as self-evident truth. Anytime the answers to all the universe's grand questions fit comfortably on the back of a postcard, there you have a religion in Berger's sense.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 13, 2012, 5:44:03 AM PST
"These men see the world as perfectly rational and comprehensible by empirical means (no other means matter). Further, if only religion were to disappear tomorrow, there would be no war, no suicide terrorism, and no genocide (cf. the "lion laying down with the lamb" in Christian and Marxist eschatology). There is a single, simple approach to understanding everything in the universe (logic, math, science), and any form of knowledge other than these, like philosophy and the other humanistic disciplines, is just needless concept-juggling for people who aren't very good at math. Once religion is eliminated and all humanistic disciplines are scientized, the universe will be perfectly echoed by the social order, and neverending peace would be the result. "

Could I see a direct quote from Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris where they say what you are claiming they say?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 13, 2012, 5:51:53 AM PST
Your last sentence spoils the reasonable approach you have adopted in the rest of the post, for it is speculative, unfounded projection.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 13, 2012, 5:54:51 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 13, 2012, 5:57:44 AM PST
One brain, one reasoning = one BIG mistake
(genius excluded of course)

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 13, 2012, 6:10:51 AM PST
Alan says:
Clarissa,

I am sorry you feel that my last sentence spoils my approach. Perhaps you would be kind enough to let me know why you think this the case. I will then have the opportunity either to edit what I said or explain my intention more clearly.

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 13, 2012, 6:12:59 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 13, 2012, 6:14:01 AM PST
You have no idea what Paine would have believed in had he lived in another age. It is useless speculation.

In another age, you and I might have believed in Greek gods. So what?

In reply to an earlier post on Nov 13, 2012, 6:15:08 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Nov 13, 2012, 6:19:20 AM PST
Alan says:
Clarissa,

"One brain, one reasoning=one BIG mistake"

Everyone makes mistakes it is part of being human, none of us is perfect. The best we can hope for is that at least we make our own mistakes and not the mistakes of others
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
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Initial post:  Nov 12, 2012
Latest post:  Dec 18, 2012

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