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Customer Discussions > Religion forum

I'm not proud to be an American.


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Showing 1-25 of 38 posts in this discussion
Initial post: Jan 1, 2013, 7:07:32 PM PST
jpl says:
But I feel lucky to be one. I didn't do anything to be an American except be born here. My father was a real warrior in WWII, and my mother was a Navy Wave. I think they can say they were proud to be Americans proudly.

Choice, however, can be made. Some people convert to Judaism or Catholicism to be able to marry. Why can't these same people choose NO religion?

Why do people CHOOSE religion, flying in the face of science? The answer is, they DON'T choose. They can't question. Why? They learned how to feel before they could think.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 1, 2013, 9:06:51 PM PST
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In reply to an earlier post on Jan 1, 2013, 9:12:21 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 1, 2013, 9:13:24 PM PST
Astrocat says:
jpl, when I converted to Catholicism it was because everything I read about the teachings seemed utterly familiar. I asked no questions because it was such a perfect fit. I realize now that that was because I had been Catholic in many past incarnations. I remained Catholic for 16 years and then moved on to something that demanded my whole attention, because I was learning something quite new and for which I had many, many questions. So I chose my two major life paths for very different reasons. I've been creating the second path for over 40 years and have never regretted it or thought of leaving it for anything else. But it's not about belief, it's about knowledge, and those are two very different things.

As far as being an American, no, I have no "pride" on that score. It's where I chose to be born, and for no doubt a number of reasons. I may find out what those reasons were when I get to that "time" between incarnations and do a thorough review of this one.

Posted on Jan 1, 2013, 10:46:19 PM PST
jpl - "I'm not proud to be an American"

I tend to agree. Firstly, I've never thought pride to be a virtue, and secondly I agree with Wilde that patriotism is the "virtue of the vicious."

"Why do people CHOOSE religion, flying in the face of science? The answer is, they DON'T choose."

I can't agree. Religion offers emotional solace and comfort. It gives simple answers to all the complex questions in life. Some people need to think there's a "plan," that someone is watching over us, etc. I've *seen* people consciously decide to put away skepticism and take up the religion of their parents. I disagreed with their reasons, but that doesn't make them brainwashed puppets.

Posted on Jan 1, 2013, 11:24:23 PM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Mar 15, 2013, 7:32:32 PM PDT]

Posted on Jan 1, 2013, 11:47:48 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 1, 2013, 11:51:19 PM PST
I am proud to be English! Although the British Empire had long been metamorphosed into Commonwealth, I was massively proud (owing indoctrination at school) of England's proud glories through history. I was also very proud that we had won so many battles against our near neighbour, the French, and that there had been no conquering of the English since 1066. I am sure the resonance of that date, together with Winston Churchill's stirring speeches, gave my parents' generation the fighting spirit needed in World War II.

I love my Passport at the Customs at seaports and airports...

Clarissa

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 5:46:08 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 2, 2013, 5:46:26 AM PST
Brian Curtis says:
"'scientists' have to deal with God
because he did create everything
and they cant explain it without Him"

History and modern civilization prove you wrong. Funny how they've had so much success at explaining and understanding the universe without reference to God, isn't it?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 5:47:55 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 2, 2013, 6:53:59 AM PST
No, not when you consider that people have God-given intelligence.

Posted on Jan 2, 2013, 6:52:14 AM PST
Sean B says:
I am grateful to be an American, very grateful. Warts and all, this is a great nation, bearing the best Constitution around. Fly that flag up high boys! For without it, the world crumbles ever faster into consolidating communism, one world governemnt where freedom never rings again. At least here, we have many rights as families to carry out our purposes as parents and children and as churches to worship as our conscience dictates.

Sean

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 7:12:30 AM PST
"Fly that flag up high boys! For without it, the world crumbles ever faster into consolidating communism..."

It does?

*looks over current geo-political scene*

I wouldn't call "Cuba and China" as indicative of a crumbing into consolidating communism, and there is a whole planet full of nations that aren't the United States, Cuba, or China.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 7:45:08 AM PST
nope

funny how mathematicians did so much in spite of goedel

the problem is that you cant do it all
and your humongous mistake is thinking that if you cant prove it
then it doesnt exist

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 7:45:47 AM PST
it was a great nation

it is just antoher failed empire on its way to destruction

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 8:14:46 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jan 2, 2013, 8:36:46 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 8:19:49 AM PST
"What about religion "flys in the face of science"?"

* The Earth is 6,000 years old
* There was a global flood
* Two of every land animal were rescued from that flood aboard a hand-made wooden ship
* All humans are descended from four couples also rescued aboard that ship
* Life as we observe it today did not evolve from a set of simple, common ancestors

These conclusions, which are justified by a particular body of religious belief, fly in the face of the evidence we have before us today.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 8:23:35 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jan 2, 2013, 8:36:48 AM PST]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 8:40:37 AM PST
"Where is your evidence for thses claims?"

Try google. You could get the answers to these in 30 seconds...

Or, feel free to go here - http://www.talkorigins.org - and find it all laid out for you. Hell, I'm feeling generous... here are the links that will take you right to the answers:

The Noah myth: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Age of the Earth: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-age-of-earth.html

Evolution, evidence for: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

... that is, if you actually have any real interest in the evidence, as opposed to playing games whereby you keep asking questions, and never offering up any information of your own.

Let's see what kind of poster you really are, shall we? Are you interested in an actual exchange, or are you going to keep asking questions, while delivering nothing...

The ball's in your court.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 9:02:48 AM PST
Brian Curtis says:
Logic fail; every time you try to tell someone else what they think and believe, you wind up being wrong, Horsie. Every time.

Science doesn't have to explain "EVERYTHING" this very minute in order for theism to be a useless and unsupported claim. Even if science had found only one answer to one question, it would be batting 1.000 compared to the knowledge provided by theism.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 4:51:18 PM PST
Sir Pugsly says:
[Customers don't think this post adds to the discussion. Show post anyway. Show all unhelpful posts.]

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 5:01:42 PM PST
Ariex says:
jpl says: "But I feel lucky to be one. I didn't do anything to be an American except be born here. My father was a real warrior in WWII, and my mother was a Navy Wave. I think they can say they were proud to be Americans proudly."

Ariex: I think most people feel proud to be a whatever because they are taught that they should feel proud of it, cultural pressure of a sort. For example, I've heard people say, "I'm proud to be white". There's a no-brainer if I ever heard one. As if they had earned their genetic package. But how about this one, from a song, no less: "I'm proud to be a redneck". My thought there was: "Here's a person who is proud of something he'd be ashamed of if he had a lick of sense".

Undoubtedly the Hitler Youth were proud to be Nazis, and Muslim terrorists are proud to be Muslims serving Allah. What is wrong with us?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 5:11:49 PM PST
Ariex says:
andthehorseirodeinontoo? says: "why do people believe science when it is wrong"

Ariex: A better question would be: "Why do people believe science is wrong just because it disagrees with things written 2700 years ago by people who though the earth was flat and demons caused disease?

andthehorseirodeinontoo? says: "some things cannot be known"

Ariex: And some things can. The fact that science doesn't have all the answers does not discount the value of the answers they do have. Your fallacious logic is showing, horse.

andthehorseirodeinontoo? says: "'scientists' have to deal with God
because he did create everything and they cant explain it without Him"

Ariex: Science deals with that which can be examined. Since believers have offered no evidence that their various gods exist despite great efforts by uncountable numbers. The idea that a god created anything comes from ancient "magical thinkers" who could offer no explanation, so they imagined something much like themselves, an agent, but with unlimited powers.

Believers seem oblivious to the fact that proposing God as an explanation doesn't really explain anything, since they can't explain how god came to exist, nor can they explain HOW god did it. And, of course, they can't offer any evidence that god exists, much less that he created anything.

Once again, the inability to explain how something happened does not lead one to the default position: "I can't understand how it could have happened so the God I believe in must have done it". This is the believer's favorite fallacy, the "argument from ignorance". Thank you, horse, for again reminding us that believers have no logical arguments to defend their faith.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 5:15:19 PM PST
Ariex says:
Mark Hornberger says: "I can't agree. Religion offers emotional solace and comfort. It gives simple answers to all the complex questions in life. Some people need to think there's a "plan," that someone is watching over us, etc. I've *seen* people consciously decide to put away skepticism and take up the religion of their parents. I disagreed with their reasons, but that doesn't make them brainwashed puppets."

Ariex: You make good points. The scriptures mention "becoming as children", and this may be exactly what some people do, letting others make their decisions because life is just too challenging to deal with on their own. No, they are not brainwashed puppets, they are seeking comfort and security, escaping from responsibility, so if things don't work out right, it is somebody else's decision that caused it, and that somebody will eventually fix it.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 5:16:31 PM PST
Ariex says:
Sir Doctor Professor Richu says: "I'm not proud to be a human but I'm lucky god looks over us."

Ariex: I feel lucky that god is overlooking us. :<) I hate to think what he might do if he notices that we are infesting his universe.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 5:20:54 PM PST
Ariex says:
Clarissa says: "I am proud to be English! Although the British Empire had long been metamorphosed into Commonwealth, I was massively proud (owing indoctrination at school) of England's proud glories through history. I was also very proud that we had won so many battles against our near neighbour, the French, and that there had been no conquering of the English since 1066."

Ariex: Should I be proud to be an American because American participation in WWII assured that there was "no conquering of the English" in that war, since England was hanging on by a very frayed thread until we stepped in?

Should the English be proud of the way they treated the conquered people of their "colonies"?

Heck, folks. I can't even say that I'm proud to be a human being, because we have so many peculiarities, one of them being that pride thingy.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 5:34:34 PM PST
Ariex says:
Clarissa says: "No, not when you consider that people have God-given intelligence."

Ariex: You're funny, Clarissa. When people use that intelligence, they often realize that it was not "god-given". Psychology sees strong indications that belief in "magical agents" (including gods) is an instinctive behavior, which probably evolved in early mammals. Notice that animals behave towards inanimate objects that move and/or make sounds exactly as they do against attacking or threatening animals. Babies react to inanimate objects that have "faces" exactly as they do to people. Chimpanzees shout, screech, and throw rocks and sticks at the sky during thunderstorms, as if they were trying to drive off an attacker.

"Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought", by Pascal Boyer.
"The Faith Instinct: How Religion Evolved and Why It Endures", Nicholas Wade.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 2, 2013, 5:50:15 PM PST
Ariex says:
Sean B says: "I am grateful to be an American, very grateful. Warts and all, this is a great nation, bearing the best Constitution around. Fly that flag up high boys! For without it, the world crumbles ever faster into consolidating communism, one world governemnt where freedom never rings again."

Ariex: The Indoctrinated American, a broken record playing the same old song. Communism is not the real threat because IT DOESN'T WORK! It is a FAILED SYSTEM. Sure, it sounds very fair, which is why it appeals to idealists. Everyone puts into the system and takes out just what he needs. If we were all ants or bees, that would work just fine, but we are not. Some would try to make it work for a while, but when they noticed that others were not putting out much effort while still taking "their share", they might begin to slack off, too, which is what happened in the Soviet Union.

Communism has appeal in poor countries: Share the wealth, everybody is equal. That sounds great to people who have almost nothing, but when they take over and share the wealth, they find that now EVERYBODY has almost nothing and they are no better off, except now the factories are closed because the "Haves" that ran them now are dead or broke, and after a bit, the revolutionary leaders seem to be getting more "Stuff" than the rest of the people. Uh oh. The law of the jungle emerges, and once again, the big ones eat the little ones, and a new class of "Haves" appears, while the rest of the people STILL have almost nothing.

The reason communism did not appeal to Americans is not because of propaganda, but because most Americans HAD STUFF they didn't want to put into a common pot. Not so in Viet Nam, for example, or North Korea, or China. Now that the Chinese are starting to improve their standard of living, Communism is crumbling away.

No matter how high we fly our flag, we are not going to save the world from human nature.

(Boy am I gonna get it now)
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Discussion in:  Religion forum
Participants:  16
Total posts:  38
Initial post:  Jan 1, 2013
Latest post:  Jan 7, 2013

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