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God does not have free will - as per Christian belief


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Showing 26-50 of 1000 posts in this discussion
In reply to an earlier post on Jan 26, 2012, 3:45:23 PM PST
freedom4all says:
Then he/she has no power to change events if change outcomes by actions?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 26, 2012, 3:53:02 PM PST
freedom4all says:
Amon says: Lucifer didn't bring "evil" to humanity. From my understanding it "brought" temptation.

f4a: Without free choice and human interaction we would still be few living in a forest wearing fig leaves.

Posted on Jan 26, 2012, 3:59:47 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 26, 2012, 4:01:06 PM PST
To Sophie

I apologize for Kakra. His pet flies all have abandoned him. I think it has to do with his on going, perpetual affliction. It's called "boredom."

My reaction to your query is this. God's free will is unaffected by the future because the he/she/it god cannot know, predetermine, predict future happenstance. Why? Because the future is a place, a condition, an event totally unknown -- unknown because it hasn't happened yet. Regardless whether you are a god or Kakra or one of us, we can only speculate, guess at the future. We can't define a reality, know a reality, that is not yet real.

God is all knowing in only of what can be known. So Sophie, my guess is our free will is intact. Look at all the mistakes we make. And certainly god's free will is intact. Look at all the mistakes he/she/it has made. And I might add, in the spirit of the words of poster Lj3d, god's mistakes all arise from his perfection.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 26, 2012, 5:54:06 PM PST
Thanks!

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 26, 2012, 9:10:41 PM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 26, 2012, 9:12:21 PM PST
Okay. What about this scenario.

God is sitting around and thinking of his future ideas 10 days in advance. He decides on action w in situation x. That IS his future action.

Except...

God sits around 5 days later thinking of his decision regarding situation x, and changes his mind to action x in situation x.

And then 1 day before situation x is set to occur, God chooses to change his mind again to action y in situation x.

It is now 10 seconds countdown to situation x, and at the last minute, God decides on action z in situation x. Oops, forgot to add, he then performs action z in situation x.

Given all these possibilities and his ability to change his mind, can you not say that he does indeed have free will?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 26, 2012, 10:17:21 PM PST
Lj3d says:
Saint Michael: My reaction to your query is this. God's free will is unaffected by the future because the he/she/it god cannot know, predetermine, predict future happenstance. Why? Because the future is a place, a condition, an event totally unknown -- unknown because it hasn't happened yet. Regardless whether you are a god or Kakra or one of us, we can only speculate, guess at the future. We can't define a reality, know a reality, that is not yet real.

Lj3d: How can we call God all knowing and all powerful if he does not know the future? After all, he created everything right? When you say "because the he/she/it god cannot know, predetermine, predict future happenstance." This seems like placing human expectations and qualities on something we don't understand. An all powerful being should be able to wipe out time if he/she wishes and start over. Or start midway.

Saint Michael: God is all knowing in only of what can be known. So Sophie, my guess is our free will is intact. Look at all the mistakes we make. And certainly god's free will is intact. Look at all the mistakes he/she/it has made. And I might add, in the spirit of the words of poster Lj3d, god's mistakes all arise from his perfection.

Lj3d: Gods mistakes arise from his perfection? If ever there was an oxymoron, this has gotta be it! Perfection by every definition I've ever known, should mean God is incapable of mistakes. God is all knowing only in what can be known? Again, didn't God create everything, including time...the future etc?

Now I don't know if there is a God or not. But I would like to think God is capable of knowing what to expect in the future of a Universe he/she created. As for perfection, I'd say this is a human construct. What exactly is perfection anyway? Is it the orbits of planets in perfect circles? We now know planetary or other celestial bodies do not orbit in perfect circles. How does one define a perfect person? If God is perfect? How did such imperfections in his creation arise? I can see the possibility of God existing, but perfection is a human idea, construct IMO.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 7:09:30 AM PST
Amon says:
The concept of "free" is so complicated.

Posted on Jan 27, 2012, 7:21:11 AM PST
The solution to the conundrum is quite simple: There is no God.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 8:04:19 AM PST
>The solution to the conundrum is quite simple: There is no God.

Exactly. It's funny how that one simple statement so often has the effect of turning on the single light bulb in a dark room or, less charitably, flushing a toilet.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 8:28:26 AM PST
What to expect is not necessarily "knowing everything"

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 8:31:55 AM PST
Joe W says:
In this context, how not?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 8:34:56 AM PST
I am assuming that you are deriving omniscience from the idea that if you could pin down in space and time particles from the very beginning of the big bang, and how they would move, and what they would do, than you could know everything that would ever happen in the Universe?

But that assumes that God inserted no randomicity into the plan. That assumes that God wouldn't have come to the conclusion that knowing everything would be boring, and wouldn't have inserted some dynamic systems and begin some processes whose function was completely random just to shake things up.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 8:52:37 AM PST
Joe W says:
That kinda tanks omniscience and omnipotence.

Posted on Jan 27, 2012, 8:57:03 AM PST
[Deleted by Amazon on Jul 15, 2016, 2:18:05 PM PDT]

Posted on Jan 27, 2012, 8:59:35 AM PST
To Lj3d

Man has a free will. A free will that is activated by each individual's expression of judgment. No facility to judge, no ability to free will.

To everyone, god exists. He either exists in reality or, if and only if, he exists as a concept.

Humans instinctively judge others, to some extent, by what they say. But in the final analysis, everyone is ultimately judged and evaluated by their actions. And like everyone else walking around, god too is subject to judgment for his words -- but ultimately, by his actions. Judging god validates that we in fact possess free will.

You: "How can we call God all knowing and all powerful if he does not know the future? After all, he created everything right?"

Me: Well, what you just stated certainly acknowledges the existence of a deity per my statement at the beginning of this post. But as to this deity's powers, that's more your opinion than any substantiated facts. But if we accept, for a New York minute, that Mr. god is in fact omniscient and omnipotent, that brings up some disturbing conclusions er..... judgments. Evil dominates our existence! That is why the eternal questions: "Where did evil come from? What is it for?" are fundamental to any discussion about Mr. god, Christ, religion, and love. Knowledge is always in short supply but that fact should not prevent us from shaking the intellectual tree and analyzing the thoughts that fall upon the universal ground.

By definition, the biblical god is omnipotently and omnisciently the initiator of all of existence! Alas, this makes god responsible for the atoms and molecules that make up evil -- certainly mankind could not have done this. What god did for man so generously was to provide, instill, the inclination for evil into man's spiritual makeup. An act that saw god`s free will trumping man`s; making man's a kind of "imitation free will."

So the great question of existence is this. Why did the biblical god present into existence a force so imperfect from itself -- a god source considered by mankind to be awash in perfection? Hypocrisy? You bet!

You: "This seems like placing human expectations and qualities on something we don't understand. An all powerful being should be able to wipe out time if he/she wishes and start over."

Me: We have a right to the defining of expectations and qualities of a god. Guess what? You just did in the previous paragraph! That's called free will. Remember? Your deity has never demonstrated an ability to "...wipe out time and start over." So your definition of his "all powerfulness" is strained at best. Your deity is always being "misunderstood." Who, fundamentally, is ultimately responsible for that condition? Perfect god or imperfect man?

You: "God's mistakes arise from his perfection? If ever there was an oxymoron, this has gotta be it! Perfection by every definition I've ever known, should mean God is incapable of mistakes."

Me: Yes, by "your" definition he is incapable of mistake. Not by mine. Evil is a mistake. And I've just told you where it came from. An all powerful deity is simply incapable of allowing evil to corrupt his existence. Yet, this is the case with our Mr. god. And yes, because of evil, man can question the viability of Mr. god's all powerfulness.

You: "...Again, didn't God create everything, including time...the future etc?

Me: Yes, thanks for your "human construct," you state my point so eloquently. Yes, he created the notion, the concept of the "future." But he couldn't possibly "know" the future. Why? Because you would then be saying that god is an eternal witness to the horrific affects of evil right into an eternal future! What kind of deity would witness, stand by, endorse, such a future? It would have to be a very confused deity who is troubled and corrupted by his own knowledge, his own miss creations. If I'm right, we are all in big trouble! If I'm wrong, we are all in big trouble!

You: "Now I don't know if there is a God or not. But I would like to think God is capable of knowing what to expect in the future of a Universe he/she created. As for perfection, I'd say this is a human construct. I can see the possibility of God existing, but perfection is a human idea, construct IMO. "

Me: You say don't know god, but you do know, can define his skills. Wow! Now that's human constructing to the max. Listen, we humans have the right to define god the reality, or god the concept, by virtue of the ultimate power we possess, free will. Take that right away, and we cease to exist. Now this is why we set up, define god as an entity awash in perfection. By defining what perfection is, we then can evaluate, judge Mr. perfect through are power, our right to judge.

Bring it!

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 9:00:07 AM PST
Hi Sophie , no it doesn't at glance , but it does under surface

Posted on Jan 27, 2012, 9:07:04 AM PST
Last edited by the author on Jan 27, 2012, 9:30:13 AM PST
Hi again Sophie, in response to your statement, God's will has always been the same: His glory and righteousness revealed through Y'shua the Messiah and for His elect for whom He called and predestined to be conformed into the image of His likeness. And for His sheep to dwell with Him in an eternal city where righteousness dwells is the purpose of why we are created , and for the vessels of wrath to be preserved for the blackness of darkness forever

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 9:20:46 AM PST
I am not sure how randomicity tanks omnipotence. I am sure that He could intervene if he so chose.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 9:33:44 AM PST
kraka:Without knowing God, without knowing His nature, without even fully knowing yourselves and the nature of your own soul you waste your time speculating whether God has free will.

SA: It seems to me that it should interest a believer, whether his God has free will. If not, there is NO point in praying, singing hymns, proselytizing on amazon forums etc. Since these activities seem to fill a considerable part of a believers day, it seems important, no?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 9:33:50 AM PST
Joe W says:
Either one knows everything, including exactly all results or one does not. There isn't a middle ground. The most an omnipotent being could do is to pretend that he doesn't know and then act surprised.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 9:34:42 AM PST
freedom4all says:Then he/she has no power to change events if change outcomes by actions?

SA: That would be exactly my point.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 9:36:18 AM PST
So you believe then, that God couldn't insert true randomization?

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 9:37:12 AM PST
SM:Because the future is a place, a condition, an event totally unknown -- unknown because it hasn't happened yet. Regardless whether you are a god or Kakra or one of us, we can only speculate, guess at the future. We can't define a reality, know a reality, that is not yet real.

SA: This interpretation gets you out of the logical contradiction. However it might get you in trouble with some of the worshippers around here:-)

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 9:38:58 AM PST
PL:Given all these possibilities and his ability to change his mind, can you not say that he does indeed have free will?

SA: As you describe Him, yes. It works, however, only because He is not allknowing in your interpretation.

In reply to an earlier post on Jan 27, 2012, 9:39:44 AM PST
Joe W says:
The term "true randomization" is a synonym for incomprehensible chaos. Right?
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